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All-Game Comp #1

Author: canadianstickdeath
Game: Zelda Classic
Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009 - 12:27 pm

Part of the Series: A Moment in Time

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Description:
UPDATE 06/10/14:
Made with ZC Version 2.5.

If you get swallowed by a like-like and lose your shield, there is no shop on the overworld (there is no overworld) where you can purchase another. I always put a shield or two in like-like infested dungeons, but they may be difficult to come across (there's one for free if you kill some enemies, and there's another in a shop for a fairly-expensive 100 rupees, and both are quite far in). I recommend that you save if you find yourself within earshot of the entrance and have made some significant progress (go file/quit, and choose the save option), so that you can restart if you get swallowed by a like-like, and getting another shield (or going without) would be hard or impossible. Also, spam the boomerang like crazy.

The Quest is password protected, not because I don't want you to steal it or anything, but because I don't want you cheating, lol. If, because of a bug, you find yourself forever-stuck (through a method besides the one I just warned you of), then I'll give you the password so you can activate the level-4 cheats.

... Continued in first post.

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canadianstickdeath
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Saturday, July 18 2009, 1:47 am EST

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Catta said:
*sigh* Fine. But prepare to have your head severed off when I complete L3.





:sever:


OK. I think I've finally gotten the panic smiley out of my system?
Silver
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Saturday, July 18 2009, 2:41 am EST

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Can you just tell me now?
canadianstickdeath
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Saturday, July 18 2009, 3:03 am EST

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Lol, you got back to where you were already? You got the hookshot? OK... let's see...

From the hookshot, west, south, west, fire hookshot a miss-shaped tree, south, kill all enemies and get compass (optional, but recommended), east, east, and attack hidden bushes with sword (hidden behind over-hanging trees) in order to get back to the beginning areas (or just quit and select continue, but you should at least see how you get back normally, lol). From the entrance, north, and then west. This is the "fence post maze" that was mentioned earlier. At this point, the solution is available (you've probably seen it already), and it's up to you to find it. At least... until I upload a video of what to do up until after solving this puzzle, probably on Monday.

Video of up until this point is probably coming Monday.
Silver
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Saturday, July 18 2009, 3:28 am EST

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What?? The fencepost maze is just fenceposts! No walls (apart from the surrounding areas)!!
canadianstickdeath
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Saturday, July 18 2009, 3:33 am EST

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Catta said:
What?? The fencepost maze is just fenceposts! No walls (apart from the surrounding areas)!!

Well G'Luck!
Livio
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Saturday, July 18 2009, 3:35 am EST

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ah, the checkpoint maze that I never figured out
canadianstickdeath
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Thursday, July 23 2009, 1:11 pm EST

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Catta, Livio, the video of the first third of Sacred Grove is up: http://www.interguild.org/videos/viewvid.php?vid=590
Silver
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Friday, July 24 2009, 2:01 am EST

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Saw it before you posted.
canadianstickdeath
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Saturday, July 25 2009, 2:12 am EST

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Hey, Catt, if you go into the level 5 file and pause, you'll see where you have the flippers, but if you do the same in level 3, you will not. Level 4 is planned to contain the flippers, which allow you to swim, as a level item.
Silver
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Saturday, July 25 2009, 3:50 am EST

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OK. Thanks.
P.S. After the area in the vid (at the ending), I've gotten the raft. Which means I completed heaps of the level without your help.
Silver
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Saturday, July 25 2009, 5:00 am EST

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Dammit, how in the world are you supposed to complete the raft puzzle?
canadianstickdeath
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Sunday, July 26 2009, 1:46 am EST

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Lol, just keep rafting around until you find the place you're trying to get to. Don't forget that you have the Hookshot, too! Also, there are another two keys hidden behind trees between where the video ends and the next dungeon entrance (which will be at the end of the raft maze), so make sure you come across those before going in there (you'll need to use all the keys you can get in order to get through there). Also, it's possible to have the boss key at this point, but you can go back and look for it after you active the shortcut between near the entrance and boss door.
Silver
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Sunday, July 26 2009, 3:09 am EST

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OK, thanks CSD.
Hey, here's a tip. When battling a Darknut, use the stab attack at the Darknut's shield, but as you do, quickly turn the opposite way before you finish stabbing: it still damages the Darknut! Pretty cool, huh?

P.S. I suck at keeping my shield. Those Suckers always get my shield. But I'm trying to use the boomerang more.
canadianstickdeath
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Sunday, July 26 2009, 3:19 am EST

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If you hit the "suckers" with the boomerang, they can't steal your shield while they're stunned! (Not that the shield really matters when you can just use the cheat to restore your health, lol).
dabigkid
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Monday, July 27 2009, 7:27 pm EST

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OK. I tried opening it and it said "Error: Unable to open file." The premade quests in the folder don't give me that problem :x
canadianstickdeath
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Monday, July 27 2009, 9:32 pm EST

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dabigkid said:
OK. I tried opening it and it said "Error: Unable to open file." The premade quests in the folder don't give me that problem :x
So instead download the program that I told you to download, right?

canadianstickdeath said:
Head over to www.shardstorm.com and download build 743 or later.
Or is there something else that could be the problem??
dabigkid
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Tuesday, July 28 2009, 1:53 am EST

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Oh, no. Missed that part. I'm kind of a pretty bad/lazy reader. And by that I mean I didn't read at all.
dando52
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Tuesday, July 28 2009, 1:57 am EST

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While we're here, CSD, when I was going to download your cavemaker, I clicked on the link, and nothing happened!!!!
canadianstickdeath
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Tuesday, July 28 2009, 1:58 am EST

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Copy-paste it into the URL bar. It's a known Interguild issue.
dabigkid
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Saturday, August 22 2009, 5:52 pm EST

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OK, I'm at the annoying little bit with the giant boat maze, and I just wanted to share a few of my impressions so far.

First let me address the second biggest problem: The first underground part is too %#$%ing hard! You need to somehow add a way that I can heal myself before I get to the part with all the spinning blade things. Otherwise the level is just way too hard. It's inevitable that most players are going to get hit at least two or three times by those things. The problem is, by that point the player probably won't have much HP to spare. Personally, I died to them like three or four times, and having to go through that again. Maybe along with a red rupee, make it so you get a fairy when you defeat all those enemies in the room that you have to open with the key. ANYTHING would be nice. Seriously. I don't even think my suggestion would make it that much easier, but it's better than nothing.

There are two other main problems with this level that you make a whole bunch of times: too much backtracking and too much ambiguity.

Now, there are two different kinds of backtracking, the good kind and the bad kind. The good kind makes the level feel like it's united on a broad level. Basically, every time you come outside from one of those dungeons and then get a new item like the hookshot or boat, and go through the outside part of the level to go somewhere new, that's good backtracking. Keep that. Honestly, I don't even want to call it "backtracking" because that's not even what it really is.

Anyway, the bad kind is the stuff where you have to go backwards through everything you just did. Take this for example: At one point during the second underground part, you encounter a room that looks like figure A in the image below, where it could simply look like figure B or even C. Going back and doing another "kill all the slimes" thing is really annoying, seeing as the player has probably already done it about six times already if he died a lot on the first dungeon.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3338/recyrsion.png

Anyway, another time you abuse this backtracking is in the first underground part, the room after the block puzzle. Look, I know it's a little late to make these kinds of changes now, but the least you could do is make it less painful by getting rid of the like like. At the very least, the user has to go through that room three times. And that's assuming the player doesn't die at all. And, well, that's annoying.

The second big problem I was talking about is ambiguity. First of all, in the first underground part, where you have to destroy the wall but there's no crack on that side of the wall... that's just annoying. You're assuming the player is going to catch on to these things... and he probably won't. They're just nuisances. I understand that these things are cool if the player notices them but the point is, he probably won't. Save those kinds of things for optional stuff, like an area that gives you 100 rupees. At the very least, you could make it so once the monsters in that room are all destroyed, the crack on the wall shows.

Second of all, the mage guy right before the first underground part. You basically hide the freaking key, and even then, how am I supposed to know that I'm supposed to kill him. Anyway, I'm not even sure what the point of the key is. Currently I have two unused keys and I'm at the island hopping part of the level...

Third of all... the secret path thing. Oh god. That was terrible. There are so many things wrong with it. Most of the rest of my post will deal with suggestions on how to make it better. This is definitely the biggest problem with your level.

I had to check the video for that one because it was just so damn confusing. First, there is a good chance that the player hasn't even gone to the area with the posts because he is not forced to and it's kind of hidden. I did and I was still confused, by the way. Second, the fenced area near the stairs is too far away from the area with the posts, so the player may not see the relationship at all. If you absolutely can't do much about this (you can, you'd just need to redesign everything and I'm not sure if you're up for that), make the areas with the fences and the posts have like, some sparkly atmospheric effect or something.

I do have a question though: is there a point to the bottom area in the first room of the second underground part? I went down there because I found the second fenced area, but it seemed pointless. If that area doesn't have a use, then you could totally utilize that in a way that makes the level less frustrating. Actually, even if there is a point to it, scratch it out, and make it so the player must go through there near the beginning of the level in order to proceed.

How would you do this? Here's my suggestion:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4131/revision.png

On the above-ground maps:

- A is the starting place
- B is the area with the posts
- C is the house that leads you to the first underground part
- D is the house with the boss portal

I made sure to use almost the exact same tiles. The only exception is that I made the house with the boss portal cross over that one tile to the left of the starting point... this can be overcome by simply not even using the tile up there at all, and putting that house on the same tile as the starting point.

Now you may be thinking two things, 1: "hey, dbk, on your revised maps what are the stars and the yellow dot?" and 2: "why is this so much better than what I had before?"

The answer to 1:

- The purple star is one of the walking patterns for the area with the posts.
- The blue star is a set of stairs that the user will come up from
- The yellow dot is like, a block that the user can only move from the right side, and not the left side. That way the user can keep going back to the area with the posts, but first must go around it via one of the walking patterns. Note that the user can access the area with the posts from both the left and right side.

Now the answer to question 2: What the player ideally does is looks at the pattern, and then goes to the posted area and activates the pattern. The close proximity and lack of places to go will easily allow the player to see the connection between the pattern that he's supposed to take note of, and the area with the posts. Then later when he sees the pattern when he walks out of the first underground area, he'll be like, "oh, ok, another pattern. Better take note."

The only concern now is the tiles underground... Which I've already dealt with! Look at the "underground map." Path A is the old path. Note that it takes 5 tiles. Path C and D would be the new paths for the first underground part. They take up seven tiles (six if you exclude the one it shares with path D), which gives you enough room to make the jelly area AND the block puzzle and maybe even something else if you're feeling a bit creative. Path D is the second underground part. I realize that you'd have to add another three or four tiles to the second underground part. Well, if you want to make your level easier to do without consulting the walkthrough video, I'd do it!

ONE LAST THING. The boat maze thingy is annoying. Really, really annoying. It's not fun, and I die a lot trying to do it.
canadianstickdeath
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Sunday, August 23 2009, 3:00 am EST

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That first underground section is a little hard. It used to be a lot harder when the mini-boss was the three dodongos (or however you spell that) but a manhandla (or however you spell that). From the sound of it though, the second underground section is too easy, lol, but if you died at least once, I won't make it harder. There's a couple of things I'm willing to do to make the first part easier, and those are:
- Take down the number of slimes in the first room by 1 or 2.
- Switch the block puzzle with the easier one from later
- Take the "enemies always return" flag of off the room after.
- Switch out the darknut for another enemy.
- Change out the room with the bomb wall for something easier yet more interesting.
- Maybe some sort of hint about the bomb wall, such as, four torches, and when you kill the enemies, the east one lights while the others don't. Just some sort of hint that something's up.
- Maybe a push-block to optionally block one of the traps from the second room of worth them. Hopefully there's room enough to squeeze that in.

I like the good kind of backtracking in this level too, lol. You didn't find the slashable bushes under the overhanging trees too difficult to find? I was hoping that wouldn't trip people up as much as some people seem to have been. There's not too much I'm willing to do about the "bad" kind. The only thing I'm not happy with is that you have to fight the Zols again, after that "A" room, that you mentioned. What I'll do is take the shutter door of of that room, so, even though you have to backtrack, you won't have to kill too many enemies along the way.

The wizrobe is a different enemy? I figured that he'd stand out. If you want, I could just hide the key behind the bush, but then the "item appeared" sound wouldn't play, so then you'd probably never notice the key. The thing about the keys is, in the very first room, I hid one behind some bushes. That was supposed to me let you know that I was going to be hiding keys behind things, and that you should be on the lookout for them. Any you only have two keys? That's not good. You SHOULD have three (it's somewhere around the first faerie), and you SHOULD DEFINITELY be on the lookout for a forth on your way to the final entrance. I guess I could try to find slightly more obvious places to hide the keys, but I'm not really sure where I could do that where they wouldn't be 100% obvious.

There is a chance that people won't even find the fence-post room. I tried to make it a little hidden, but also likely to be found, because of the dirt trail pointing toward it. What I would be willing to do, though, is remove the overhanging bushes, making the path to it completely visible. Also, there's a hint, in this one room, where there's a message that's like "don't tell link the solution to the fence post maze" or something, where it's supposed to hit you over the head with "hey, be on the look-out for the solution to a maze!". If you can't find it, it's in what will be the boss-shortcut room where you walk up to this thing on the wall and press you "A" button. I was hoping the useless posts hanging around in the solution room would also help make it stand out.

So no, there's no way I'm redesigning the whole dungeon for anything. It'd be nice if my tile-set had fog (I think the newer pure tile-sets do, but for some stupid reason, I using a really old one), and I'd add that to the maze room and it's solutions. I COULD make it rain, but you'll see that later, and I'm using it for something more important... MAYBE I could do that, I GUESS. Maybe I'll just make it rain, but none of the lightning that I usually put. Anyway, there is a point to the lower section. I suggest killing all of the enemies in that room...

So you're on the raft maze? I like the way that section of the level looks, actually. It's perdy. Anyway, if the rafting is slow, try pressing f1 to speed things up a little bit. A rule of thumb is, if you end up somewhere you've already been, it's the wrong way, and if you end up somewhere you haven't, it's 99% chance the right one. It gets easy the more you try it, because now you know more of the correct path to take. Remember that you have the hookshot, and don't accidentally use it to get back to somewhere you've already been. Oh, and remember to find a forth key, somewhere. You're on the last leg of the level, but it's quite lengthy. There's a fairy half-way through, and if you get low on health after it, definitely head back for a refill. Finally, the cheat is the same as it was for level 5, for when you can't beat the boss.
dabigkid
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Sunday, August 23 2009, 3:48 am EST

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OK.

While we're talking about suggestions... Here are some less controversial ones. First of all, you need some legit tiles for some of the destroyed walls. They're coming up as blank brown tiles for me.

Second of all, if you ever need some original midi files, you can always consult me. ;D Here's an example of my more VGM-esque work: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=28e2ef70ef106d30d9d5c56d04dfa8b0e04e75f6e8ebb871
canadianstickdeath
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Sunday, August 23 2009, 4:24 am EST

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"OK."
Man, that would have saved me a lot of time and text in that last post.

"First of all, you need some legit tiles for some of the destroyed walls. They're coming up as blank brown tiles for me."
Srsly? Watch the video, and you'll see two places where I've bombed a wall? Are THOSE places showing up wrong? What build are you using? Is it just on certain screens?

Lol, are you saying there's something wrong with the music I currently using?
dabigkid
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Sunday, August 23 2009, 3:05 pm EST

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Hahah I read everything you said... but I don't have much to say about it. I'm not going to argue against your decisions. I'm just throwing out suggestions, and if you don't take them, fine. Not really my concern But I really really really suggest changing that one room after the block puzzle... turning off "enemies always return" would be a good change. Or you could get rid of the like-like.

As for the bad tiles... it just happens sometimes. I dunno why. In the video it's good but for me, not really. Maybe it's the version of ZC I'm playing? I dunno.

As for using my music... just letting you know you have options
Isa
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Sunday, August 23 2009, 3:08 pm EST
No. I'm an octopus.

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IIRC, we needed music for Aeon...maybe you could throw together something for that, or maybe you already got some music that fits. Would be good either way.

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