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jebby
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Sunday, January 8 2017, 8:58 am EST
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It's a cavemaker. It has storage for your caves. It has a public cave directory for you to share your caves. It has a Play button that opens the current cave in HATPC Reborn. All in one place.

This means you can test your levels with less time and effort. It also means you can play other people's caves without having to find the Neopets account they've uploaded a level to.

There will definitely be bugs, so please report anything wonky you find on here. It's a work-in-progress, as is HATPC Reborn, so please be patient as we improve the tool.

LINK: CaveGen 3


Notes:
- Works best in Chrome, but works fine in Firefox too.
- Allow Adobe Flash (for Copy) and popups (for Play) on the page.
- To make your cave public, open Properties and tick the Public checkbox. Others can see and play your cave, but can't edit it.
- You can change your display name in Profile.
- Most of the hotkeys you're used to should work.
- Hold Mouse3 to pan, move Mouse3 forward and back to zoom.
- Steel arrows have been added.
- HATPC Reborn is a work-in-progress so not all of your levels will work in it. I've provided a copy-to-clipboard button if you want to play your level in the original HATPC.
- Clicking Play opens a new HATPC Reborn window every time. Also, when you beat the level, you have to click Play again in order to replay. I'm working on this (with Droid's help)
- When you play a cave in Reborn, you may have to wait for a few loading screens to go by. Be patient and your cave will load up eventually.
- Yimmy requested an option to paste a cave code into CaveGen. I think this is a great idea as it will help the community move their old levels over to the new platform. This feature will be coming soon.
- I will at some point scrape the Interguild website to move all the old levels to CaveGen. I won't do this just yet as most of them aren't compatible with HATPC Reborn.
- You have Chaos Theory to play with for now in the level database. HATPC Reborn runs it better than the original did.
- Zooming is wonky on very large levels. This is due to rounding errors. I'm aware of it and will be working on fixing this soon.
- I am not a designer. The design of the website is all placeholder. I'm speaking with a designer next week to improve the layout and workflow.
- The site will break on small screens.

On my agenda for new features:
- Public Cave Directory 2.0.
- HATPC Reborn event support.
- Level code pasting.
- Borderless caves.
- Row/column insertion/deletion.
- Level analytics (play count, death heatmaps).
- Player analytics (proof that shos is the best player).
- Chat.
- Real-time cave collaboration.


As always, all bug reports, feedback and suggestions on improving usability are welcome. Once again, this is a work-in-progress and pretty much everything on the site is subject to change. Many thanks to DroidFreak for making HATPC Reborn and inspiring me to work on this again.

Have fun!

Another link: CaveGen 3
atvelonis
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Sunday, January 8 2017, 2:07 pm EST
Oyexerga

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Off to a nice start. So glad that you included all of the blocks in one screen rather than having a ridiculously slow scrollbar like the one that was in Aeon. I didn't try making a detailed level yet, but here are some quick ideas about the editor stuff:

* Personally, I would prefer a normal cursor on the editor itself, though I suppose this might make it harder to know exactly how much space you're selecting with larger brush sizes. Then again, if you're using a big brush, you probably don't care about being accurate. This might be something to talk to the designer about, I guess.
* Hopefully the textures for terrain/D/S/C/W etc. will be added to the editor screen itself soon?
* I think there should be a "clear all" button in case you want to turn everything into air instantly.
* There should be a way to select different textures and the background of your cave, but you might already be working on that.

Pressing play works fine, takes me to HATPC Reborn with no issues. I'll work on a level this evening to publish. Looking forward to seeing more updates for it in the future!


jellsprout said:
As a kid I always thought tennisballs looked delicious and I liked biting them. I still remember the feel of the fuzz on my teeth and tongue.
jebby
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Sunday, January 8 2017, 2:42 pm EST
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Thanks for your feedback, Adrian.

* Interesting that you prefer a normal cursor - the red one was intended to make placement more accurate, especially for larger brushes like you said. I suppose taking away a normal cursor on a web browser was controversial - I may combine both. Another point is that there is no cursor at all outside the cave boundaries, which is really disorientating - adding a normal cursor would fix that.
* It never occurred to me that anyone would want textures for those rare tiles. I don't see why not, though the door might be complex due to it occupying multiple tiles. The purpose of not adding a texture for terrain was to improve performance on those with slower machines - my assumption was that aesthetics wouldn't be too important while cavemaking.
* The Rebuild button does turn everything to terrain, though it never occurred to me that anyone would want to fill their cave with space and add terrain rather than subtracting it. Really interesting - I'll definitely look into making that happen.
* Yes, terrain type, water type and background type will be coming. If I collaborate with Droid on that, I could even allow you to upload your own textures.
DroidFreak36
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Sunday, January 8 2017, 3:35 pm EST
Jace's Archivist

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I too would like there to be a normal cursor in addition to the red outline. With a normal cursor, you can see the exact location within the square, rather than just seeing the whole square, so you know how close you are to the edges.

Other thoughts:

* That button on the left... what does it even do? And why doesn't it have a tooltip like the other 3 buttons?
* Tooltips for tiles would be nice as well, especially for the ones where the icon is just a letter.
* When clicking play, the popup window it opens has scrollbars over the bottom and right edges. I think there's some way to make popups not have scrollbars, but IDK how one would do that besides making the window large enough that the scrollbars don't appear.
* I noticed you have implemented zooming in and out, but it seems a bit buggy and I can't find a way to pan. Is there a way to pan?
* It would probably be a good idea to use at least the placeholder terrain texture rather than grey boxes, because it can be a bit unclear to new users what the grey boxes are. When I first tried out CaveGen (on a previous version) it took me a little while to realize that the cave was pre-filled with terrain in grey box form.




http://www.droidfreak36.com
jebby
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Sunday, January 8 2017, 4:16 pm EST
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Thanks for the feedback, Droid.

* Fascinating. I thought that icon was universally recognised as the copy to clipboard icon. I will change it to a more clipboardy looking icon. As for the lack of tooltip... that is to do with the fact that copy-to-clipboard on webpages is only possible via a hack using Flash. For some reason, this makes it really difficult for any tooltips to figure out where the actual button is. Whenever I added a tooltip (both my own and from libraries), it would get the position totally wrong. It's really weird, and something I'd like to fix at some point.
* Good point (re tile tooltips).
* I just fixed that (albeit by slightly increasing the size of the window - I'm sure there's a more elegant way).
* See the notes I wrote in the OP. Zooming is indeed buggy due to some goofy rounding errors I wasn't able to pinpoint. It's not too bad in caves that don't have to be zoomed out very much. Panning is possible by holding down Mouse3 and dragging. I may add arrow key panning for those who just have trackpads.
* Interesting point. Maybe the performance isn't too bad using the textures. I'll give it a try.

Already a bunch of things pointed out that I didn't think of, which is awesome.
aych bee
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Sunday, January 8 2017, 4:57 pm EST
𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘧𝘧 𝘔𝘦𝘮𝘣𝘦𝘳

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this is gonna replace the interguild lol


shos said:
so uh...you're a guy? you sure? take off dat pants for a mo and take a look~

Livio said:
"Drain the swamp," they chanted as they elected the swampiest swamp king and all of his swampy cronies.

Sefro
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Tuesday, January 10 2017, 11:44 pm EST

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This is awesome!

- Moving around the level feels great with a mouse. I like that you can zoom out, move your cursor and zoom in to where it is. Definitely needs accommodations for trackpads though.

- I love the auto-fill spike feature that applies to terrain.

- Placing more than one Hannah renders that many Hannahs in the game, which all move around. Only one can jump but if any one dies the level restarts. It's a bug in the game but it's sort of cool, lol. (should probably limit to one Hannah and door though)

- Not sure what the red X is for. Fake crates?

- The things on your agenda sound great, especially the analytics.
jebby
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Wednesday, January 11 2017, 4:21 am EST
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Thanks, Sefro!

* Trackpad support will most likely be in the form of arrow key panning. A question for anyone with a "normal" trackpad on their laptop: how do you scroll with your trackpad? I have a Macbook, which has a nice gesture for scrolling - not everyone might be so lucky.
* @multiHannah: that is hilarious - I never noticed that before. Droid, please never fix that bug - there's some interesting cave designs that are made possible by it. That said, I will need to validate caves to avoid confusing new players. Or at least warn them that they've added multiple Hannahs/doors.
* Yes, that is a fake crate. I need to redo some of the palette tiles. Giving them tooltips will be a good start. Or maybe I could add a little info box for each one to explain what they do

Sefro, I did try to find one of your caves to add to the public directory. Unfortunately, none of them seemed compatible with Reborn, mainly because they contained enemies. It would be awesome if you made a new cave in your style that was playable on Reborn via the public directory.
Sefro
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Wednesday, January 11 2017, 11:57 pm EST

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I started a cave! It's about halfway done. As for panning on trackpads, could you use the right mouse button? If you did that, I would also suggest binding mouse 3 to delete tiles instead (although I do like the feel of having all the navigating functions on the same button).
aych bee
[?] Karma: 0 | Quote - Link
Thursday, January 12 2017, 1:01 am EST
𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘧𝘧 𝘔𝘦𝘮𝘣𝘦𝘳

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can u create like a test user or something i do not want to entrust Jebby with my personal details like my email


shos said:
so uh...you're a guy? you sure? take off dat pants for a mo and take a look~

Livio said:
"Drain the swamp," they chanted as they elected the swampiest swamp king and all of his swampy cronies.

Rocket Guy2
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 1:56 pm EST
Do a barrel roll

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Oh boy! I've had an idea for a cool level with the Multihannah glitch.

Possible name (WIP) Duelo Maestro

EDIT: Interesting find. Only one hannah jumps when you hit jumps, the other one can only jump when the other's in midair. PUZZLE CAPABILITIES AT MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE


Quote for August 2017

"I don't care about July" - Rocket guy2
Teo
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 3:20 pm EST

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I think most of the stuff has been already pointed out, but except of the mouse cursor I'd also need and the function to erase all terrain:

> I'm very used to using Insert and Delete buttons in CSD's Cavemaker and it really speeds up my process of making a cave, because I don't have to choose the blank button to erase stuff; I just need to choose area and push delete. Insert may be less needed, but it's your decision.
> The zooming in and out option is very cool, but it would be nice if zooming out always made the cave get centered. Sometimes I zoom it out quickly and the cave is cut off at the top or at the bottom, and I need to go zooming again to fix it.

Besides that, I don't remember anything at the moment. The integration with HatPC is, of course, the most useful thing of all times here. If I come up with something, I'll write it back here, great job guys and thanks for sharing this tool so quickly!
jebby
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 4:27 pm EST
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@Sefro: Great, I look forward to it! Mouse3 to delete makes sense for someone who uses that feature to delete tabs in Chrome. Mouse3 is also used for panning in some RTS games. I'm not sure yet if Mouse3 needs to change, but I like the idea of being able to delete with the mouse.

@aych bee: You can do what I used to do when I didn't trust the Internet with my email and have a separate one for things like this.

@RocketGuy2: Make that level! And that's a really interesting find regarding the mid-air jump. I really want to see someone make a level that uses that glitch in an interesting way.

@Teo: I will add Insert/Delete for you.

@Teo: Zooming needs a bit more work, and centring is on my to-do list.

I'll be doing some work on CaveGen this weekend, mainly applying the feedback you guys have given.
Sefro
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 4:44 pm EST

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For the record, cavegen works surprisingly well on my tablet. The most noticeable problem (aside from not being able to play levels, which can't be helped) is that zooming in doesn't adjust the tiles properly, so everything is very pixelated.

Edit:  actually, the worst problem is that when you pinch to zoom in and out it places a tile where one of your fingers was.
jebby
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 4:49 pm EST
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That is surprising. I was resigned to showing a notice on mobile devices saying something like "CaveGen doesn't work on mobile devices, soz". Now that you mention it's usable, I may look into making it tablet-friendly at least. I find the idea of poking away at a level on a tablet quite appealing. I'll perhaps just remove the Play button on those devices.

I have had some thoughts on making HATPC playable on mobile. I have some notes somewhere - if I can be bothered to find them, I'll post them on here.

EDIT: had a play with it on mobile. I see what you mean about zooming - the device's pinch zoom overrides the zoom of the app. I'm sure there's a way around that. It also gets confused when orientation is shifted. Proportions are dodgy too. There's a lot of work to be done on mobile support, but it's certainly possible.
Yimmy
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 6:48 pm EST
Resident Goody two-shoes

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An option to open the play window in a new tab as opposed to a new window would be cool



To Jebby, Shos said:
lol. i didn't ask if you're british. i asked if you can speak the British language! you know, it's like English, but with a wierd accent!

pronouncing "rare" as re-ah, or 'the hobbit' as lah-ob-eat.
no 'r's alive, you can't hear a british guy says 'there' the-r. it will always be 'the-ah'...
jebby
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 6:51 pm EST
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Yimmy said:
An option to open the play window in a new tab as opposed to a new window would be cool


Absolutely. It'd arguably be easier to switch between the two. I might actually make that the default.
aych bee
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 8:30 pm EST
𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘧𝘧 𝘔𝘦𝘮𝘣𝘦𝘳

Age: 97
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but what if you, like me, use a browser without tabs


shos said:
so uh...you're a guy? you sure? take off dat pants for a mo and take a look~

Livio said:
"Drain the swamp," they chanted as they elected the swampiest swamp king and all of his swampy cronies.

Darvince
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 8:49 pm EST
tap on a bap

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Get a better browser tbh
Yimmy
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Thursday, January 12 2017, 9:01 pm EST
Resident Goody two-shoes

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The double hannah glitch seemed really cool until I realized that the camera focuses on Hannah #2 while hannah #1 is the one that can jump easily.

edit: when this is super complete a mode where you could make caves with other people would be cool

edit 2.0: the editting:I published a level, but it's just a novelty so I didn't feel like clogging the database. Have fun watching hundreds of hannahs cascade through wooden crates!



To Jebby, Shos said:
lol. i didn't ask if you're british. i asked if you can speak the British language! you know, it's like English, but with a wierd accent!

pronouncing "rare" as re-ah, or 'the hobbit' as lah-ob-eat.
no 'r's alive, you can't hear a british guy says 'there' the-r. it will always be 'the-ah'...
Rocket Guy2
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Friday, January 13 2017, 11:19 am EST
Do a barrel roll

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Which name do you prefer, Duelo Maestro or Lunar Abyss?

Also, how do you change the width of a level without rebuilding it?


Quote for August 2017

"I don't care about July" - Rocket guy2
jebby
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Friday, January 13 2017, 11:58 am EST
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Rocket Guy2 said:
Which name do you prefer, Duelo Maestro or Lunar Abyss?

Also, how do you change the width of a level without rebuilding it?


Lunar Abyss.

I'm afraid you can't right now - inserting columns and rows is on my TODO list though. If you really need extra space, let me know how many columns you want added and I can add them for you. I totally understand that tweaking width and height without starting from scratch would make people's lives easier - working on it.  
Yimmy
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Friday, January 13 2017, 4:09 pm EST
Resident Goody two-shoes

Karma: 47
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Location: Climbing In Your Windows
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Is there a way to delete caves you've saved?



To Jebby, Shos said:
lol. i didn't ask if you're british. i asked if you can speak the British language! you know, it's like English, but with a wierd accent!

pronouncing "rare" as re-ah, or 'the hobbit' as lah-ob-eat.
no 'r's alive, you can't hear a british guy says 'there' the-r. it will always be 'the-ah'...
jebby
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Friday, January 13 2017, 4:46 pm EST
Interguild Founder

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Gender: Male
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Quote:
Is there a way to delete caves you've saved?


Not yet. It wasn't a critical feature, but it is on my list. If you've accidentally created a bunch of empty caves, I'm happy to clean them up for you. For now, I'd just treat them as empty slots for your future caves.

For anyone who accidentally publishes a cave to the public directory, unticking "Public" in "Properties" will make your cave private again.
DroidFreak36
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Saturday, January 14 2017, 2:49 pm EST
Jace's Archivist

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I might make double-Hannah a feature and try to polish some mechanics to make it run better. Like, maybe make the camera center between two Hannahs rather than on one of them.




http://www.droidfreak36.com

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