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shos
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Monday, April 9 2018, 6:55 pm EST
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VOTECOUNT OF THE DAY

With 4 alive, it takes 3 votes to lynch.
Day ends in: April 17th, 6.00 p.m. INTERGUILD TIME.

Krotomo (1) - Yaya.
Yaya (2) - Krotomo, Jorster.

NOT VOTING:
Mymop.

Nobody is due prods.
  


Yaya
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Tuesday, April 10 2018, 10:31 pm EST

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Yall seem pretty cool with me being at L-1. I've been at L-1 for a little over 24 hours, so I think someone hammering me at this point will no longer count as a quick kill. If Mymop's the only person besides me not voting for me, and he's "confirmed town", then the remaining scum is probably already voting for me. Aka, Kro. Food for thought



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krotomo
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Tuesday, April 10 2018, 11:45 pm EST
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Not sure why Jorster felt the need to bring Yaya to L-1. It makes me a little bit wary of him, though I still see far more indication that he's town than that he is scum. The good thing is that this confirms now without any doubt that mymop is town. Still though, Jorster, can you explain the reasoning behind this decision?

By the way, to clarify, mymop's interpretation of my post is correct.


Also, I want to highlight this from one of Yaya's posts earlier this day:
'Yaya' said:
Strategically Kro would be a better person to lynch over Mymop, since as you've clearly demonstrated, people are likely to believe his "confirmed townie" status. I just personally think Mymop is more suspicious.

Yaya, you say here that you think mymop is more suspicious than myself, but that you see voting for me to be a better strategic choice because others would be more likely to support it. If you were town, why would you ever think it a strategically good idea to go along with a lynch of someone you think is less suspicious, during a mislynch or lose scenario? That's super scummy.

Lastly, I'm not sure what Yaya's logic is in his latest post.
Yaya
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Wednesday, April 11 2018, 12:23 am EST

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'Krotomo' said:
Yaya, you say here that you think mymop is more suspicious than myself, but that you see voting for me to be a better strategic choice because others would be more likely to support it. If you were town, why would you ever think it a strategically good idea to go along with a lynch of someone you think is less suspicious, during a mislynch or lose scenario? That's super scummy.
I was introduced to the general concept by this Soccerboy post.
'Soccerboy' said:
I'm incredibly frustrated because I 95% believe atvelonis is scum, but Yaya might be better to lynch from a tactical standpoint due to your claim.
I know it's not exactly the same situation, but I digress. Some part of me thinks Mymop is scum, but also some part of me thinks that you're scum. He's had more outwardly scummy behavior, but as has been discussed, it can get easily blurred with inexperienced townie behavior. It's a strategically good idea for me to vote for you, because there's far more support, and it's not like I think there's 0% chance you're scum. I'm not gonna vote for Mymop in the part of the game where literally every vote counts, unless there's an actual chance that he's gonna get lynched



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Jorster
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Wednesday, April 11 2018, 12:44 am EST
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My reasoning was to essentially confirm mymop as town and to gauge reactions from you two. Had mymop hammered we would've lost but I was confident in Soccer's results enough to risk that. Moving on to your reactions, Yaya's reaction strikes me more as town than scum. Yours however, kro, sounds more like scum trying to sound townie than me. I also feel that had you been town you would've unvoted seeing my vote, just to be sure there wasn't a mislynch. I hate analyzing flavour names but since Yimmy's was falling boulder the fake crate seems more in line with a scum role name, assuming you gave your real role title. As well as that, analyzing Isa's earlygame play, it makes sense he would have claimed miller having been scum, because in most every game here he always gets investigated first. I'm starting to lean more on kro because of this.
Unvote

Mod: When does the day end?


Jorster
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Wednesday, April 11 2018, 12:45 am EST
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I also don't think I've ever seen a miller in a 9 player game.


shos
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Wednesday, April 11 2018, 5:30 am EST
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  April 17th, 6pm. I haven't yet had a breather since landing. Will edit stuff and update later today


Mymop
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Wednesday, April 11 2018, 4:47 pm EST
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Jorster, that was a very clever move. I never would have though of something like that.

Anyway, although I'm still a bit suspicious of Yaya, after re-reading the recent(ish) posts I noticed this one by Yaya which seemed pretty towny to me:
'Yaya' said:
I get what yall are saying. To some extent I'm probably letting my thoughts on Mymop's overall performance cloud my thoughts on his alignment. I'll wait and see if he does anything scummy today that also can't be interpreted as being an inexperienced townie before I consider him a worthwhile scum candidate

While it is possible that he's scum who simply backed down in the face of significant backlash, it's also possible that he's town who changed his mind after reading everyone else's thoughts and observations.

I think Yaya's explanation of his post where he mentions "strategic" lynches makes sense. However, I don't think Kro's interpretation of it is scummy because I didn't exactly understand it at first either, so I can see how he might have though it was reasonable.

About what Jorster brought up regarding Kro not unvoting Yaya: if Kro is town then it makes sense that he'd want Yayya lynched. However, I think it's in the best interest of the town to wait until the end of the day before lynching someone, and you'd think that Kro would see that too. Even though he, like me, hasn't played Mafia on the IG before, he received a huge amount of backlash after the RG lynch, so it would be sensible for him to try to avoid that again. However, it is also possible that he assumed I'd wait until the very end of the day before voting, since I've been advocating for that.

In conclusion, I'm now less suspicious about Yaya and more suspicious of Kro than I was before. Overall I'm not certain about either's alignment.  


Spoiler:
krotomo
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Wednesday, April 11 2018, 5:26 pm EST
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'Yaya' said:
It's a strategically good idea for me to vote for you, because there's far more support, and it's not like I think there's 0% chance you're scum.

I highly disagree with this... if we lynch the wrong person here, we lose the game. IMO it makes little to no sense for a town member to ever push for a lynch of someone other than their top scum suspect. The fact that you would consider doing that is scummy, as it's way more beneficial to scum to justify their malicious votes based off of popular support than it is for town, especially in this mislynch and lose situation.


'Jorster' said:
I also feel that had you been town you would've unvoted seeing my vote, just to be sure there wasn't a mislynch.

I had little reason to think that mymop would lynch Yaya early. Mymop was very good about not hammering early during Day 3, especially considering he thought he was being pressured to do so.


'Jorster' said:
I also don't think I've ever seen a miller in a 9 player game.

In a 9 player game, have you ever seen a role that when targeted has a 33% chance of killing themselves and the person targeting them? Make sure to be fair with your reasoning here.


Jorster, I'm surprised that you interpreted Yaya's post as being more of a town reaction, considering he really didn't say much at all. In fact, his arguments recently have been pretty lacking in comparison to before; and when you consider fluffy paragraphs like the one mymop pointed out earlier, it almost feels like Yaya is trying to say as little as possible as a form of damage control after his pushing for a mymop lynch failed.


'mymop' said:
While it is possible that he's scum who simply backed down in the face of significant backlash, it's also possible that he's town who changed his mind after reading everyone else's thoughts and observations.

I find this really unlikely. Yaya first came up with his godfather theory a while back, and soccer quickly addressed it. Yaya's had a lot of time to consider the evidence, and our reasoning for you not being godfather wasn't exactly very different from soccer's. It's more likely that Yaya felt pressured to change his stance rather than that he was somehow enlightened by us.
Jorster
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Wednesday, April 11 2018, 8:20 pm EST
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I also feel that the pushing for a mymop lynch is a bit too ballsy for scum to do in a lylo situation the more I think about it. Yaya has also had a habit of assuming godfather roles in most if not all of his previous mafia experience.

No I haven't but I feel that a miller is more unlikely than a slightly modified bomb.  


Jorster
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Thursday, April 12 2018, 2:23 am EST
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To elaborate: Yaya's role makes sense from a balance perspective. But would a commuter, a cop, a miller vs a scum rolecop and a goon(maybe?) be too scum sided? I think it would. Yaya's claimed role could be possibly bad for town, but it's more likely it would be bad for scum. Your claimed role is only detrimental to town, so I think that barring some major scumslip from Yaya, I think our best bet would be to lynch you.

Vote: Krotomo


shos
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Thursday, April 12 2018, 9:44 am EST
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VOTECOUNT OF THE DAY

With 4 alive, it takes 3 votes to lynch.
Day ends in: April 17th, 6.00 p.m. INTERGUILD TIME.

Krotomo (2) - Yaya, Jorster.
Yaya (1) - Krotomo.

NOT VOTING:
Mymop.

I have updated all previous VCs to be formal and correct.
Home sweet home.
  


Yaya
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Thursday, April 12 2018, 8:39 pm EST

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'In response to a quote of mine, Krotomo' said:
I highly disagree with this... if we lynch the wrong person here, we lose the game. IMO it makes little to no sense for a town member to ever push for a lynch of someone other than their top scum suspect. The fact that you would consider doing that is scummy, as it's way more beneficial to scum to justify their malicious votes based off of popular support than it is for town, especially in this mislynch and lose situation.
Mymop isn't my top scum suspect anymore? Imo, I've put Mymop on the backburner since the 2nd paragraph of this post. Since then, most if not all of my mentions of Mymop being scum have been in defense of my original suspicions, not a continuation of accusations towards him. I still think there's a chance Mymop scum (but less so since Jorster's ploy to see if Mymop would quickhammer me), but I think there's a better chance you're scum. It's okay (and healthy) for people to change their opinions. Had I continued to cling to the idea of Mymop being scum to the degree that I did at the start of this gameday, there's a chance I would've gotten mislynched, or there wouldn't be enough votes to lynch the actual remaining scum member (you).



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krotomo
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Friday, April 13 2018, 7:04 pm EST
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Jorster... I understand where you're coming from in regards to Yaya trying to get mymop lynched. You wouldn't expect scum to be making such a daring play. However, let me explain why that's not so farfetched.

Right now, there are three town players and one scum player. The towns have the following objective: to figure out who is most likely scum, and lynch them. In order to do this, the town has to get both town reads and scum reads, so as to minimize the chance of lynching town and maximize the chance of lynching scum.

The mafia player has one objective: to get someone that's not them lynched. Their goal is to figure out which townie is the easiest target, and to convince the town to lynch that person. They aren't thinking as much about town reads or scum reads, because they already have that information.

In mafia, just as in any other game, a player's thinking revolves around their objective. However, in a two-sided game such as this one, that can lead to a player on one team failing to think about what the other team's goals are. To you or I, the idea of lynching mymop was completely ridiculous. That's because as towns, we're actively trying to figure out who's town: and all of the evidence at the start of the Day indicated that mymop is very likely town and shouldn't be lynched.

Yaya is a far more experienced Mafia player than me, but I was able to figure out why lynching mymop was a terrible idea, and he somehow wasn't. If Yaya were town, do you honestly think that would happen? Do you genuinely believe that Yaya is that bad at the game? No, of course not. He's simply not thinking like us, because as scum, Yaya's objectives are different from ours. Yaya's not worrying about figuring out who's town and who isn't: he already knows that. His goal is to find the townie who is the easiest to get lynched, and to target that person. Mymop, with his numerous misplays and questionable arguments, can seem like a very good target: and because of this, Yaya may fail to realize that from the town's perspective, lynching mymop is just about the worst possible play imaginable. Doing so would require an extra mental step for Yaya: since he already knows everyone but him is town, he has to force himself to think from our view in order to see the things that are obvious to us.

Jorster; at the beginning of this Day, there was a chance—albeit a very small one—that mymop could be scum. But recently, that chance has all but evaporated, and we both know why. We know why mymop is 100% town because we are actively trying to figure out who's town and who isn't, because it's essential to our main objective as townies. But look at Yaya's latest posts: he still hasn't made that realization, despite how obvious it is to us. He still says mymop is a suspect.

Do you really think Yaya would be that clueless if he were town? Do you really think Yaya, with his experience, would fail so horrendously at one of his primary goals? That's ridiculous. It's not because Yaya is bad; it's because he's not thinking about it, because he's scum.
Jorster
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Friday, April 13 2018, 8:01 pm EST
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That post is full of wifom and buddying. Yes, I know how mafia is played and this did come across my mind, but Yaya's godfather based thinking isn't new. I also think it's smart to consider everyone possible scum, even if it may be a bit misguided at this point in the game. You also neglected to touch on my previous post at all, which may be either you being too fixated on the mymop thing or a purposeful oversight. I still think it's you.


Mymop
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Friday, April 13 2018, 8:40 pm EST
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'Yaya' said:
Had I continued to cling to the idea of Mymop being scum to the degree that I did at the start of this gameday, there's a chance I would've gotten mislynched, or there wouldn't be enough votes to lynch the actual remaining scum member (you).

This makes it seem as though you've only said I'm not so suspicious in order to avoid getting lynched. Are your reasons for suspecting me the same as what you've said before, or is there something that you haven't mentioned yet?

'Kro' said:
His goal is to find the townie who is the easiest to get lynched, and to target that person. Mymop, with his numerous misplays and questionable arguments, can seem like a very good target: and because of this, Yaya may fail to realize that from the town's perspective, lynching mymop is just about the worst possible play imaginable.

Yaya doesn't seem to have failed to see that; that's why he said it would be "strategically better" to lynch you even though he thought I was more suspicious.

Also, what's "wifom"? Anyway, I agree with Jorster that Kro's post seemed like an attempt at buddying, as it relied heavily on the idea of me being an innocent victim of a predatory Yaya.  


Spoiler:
krotomo
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Friday, April 13 2018, 10:55 pm EST
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Sorry Jorster, I guess I got carried away and ended up not responding to your discussion about roles. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning behind my miller role being unlikely, and why me having it makes the game scum-sided. Don't we have a cop and a commuter, two powerful roles that help the town? Why would it be unreasonable to have one negative role? I also find Yaya's role more doubtful for the reasons I mentioned earlier: compared to all other claimed roles so far, his is non-standard.


'Jorster' said:
Yes, I know how mafia is played and this did come across my mind, but Yaya's godfather based thinking isn't new.

Can you give me examples of Yaya's godfather based thinking? I searched the site, but was only able to find two posts where Yaya suspected someone of being godfather:
1.
2.
I have to be missing something here, right? If this is all there is to justify Yaya having "godfather-based thinking," your argument is pretty weak. Neither of these examples are so egregious as Yaya pushing for a lynch on someone who was confirmed town in a mislynch and lose scenario, and Yaya even turned out to be scum in one of them.

Jorster: Since you seem to be leaning that Yaya is town, how can you justify Yaya's poor reads today, beyond the godfather reasoning you already mentioned? If he were really town, why has he failed multiple times to see the obvious, despite his relative experience?


'Yaya' said:
Mymop isn't my top scum suspect anymore? Imo, I've put Mymop on the backburner since the 2nd paragraph of this post.

I was addressing a post you made before you decided to backpedal and why your approach to lynching is scummy. My argument has nothing to do with whether or not you currently claim to think mymop is scum, it's that you think it makes sense to vote for someone who's not your top scum candidate during a mislynch and lose scenario.


'mymop' said:
Yaya doesn't seem to have failed to see that; that's why he said it would be "strategically better" to lynch you even though he thought I was more suspicious.

He absolutely failed to see that lynching you was the worst possible play imaginable, because if he had, he wouldn't have tried to get you lynched. Like I said, he failed to understand the town perspective. He was aware of your investigation result, but didn't understand the extent to which lynching you was obviously bad for us with the information we had.

Also mymop: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM
Yaya
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Saturday, April 14 2018, 1:14 am EST

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'Krotomo' said:
He still says mymop is a suspect.
The fact that I still think Mymop is a suspect (probably to less of a degree than you seem to think I do) isn't hurting anyone but myself. I'm totally fine with that there's pretty much a 0% chance of Mymop getting lynched this game day. I'm mainly clutching onto my suspicions at this point so I can go "haha, told you so" in the unlikely event he is scum.
'Krotomo' said:
Yaya is a far more experienced Mafia player than me... It's not because Yaya is bad; it's because he's not thinking about it, because he's scum.
To be fair, experience=/=skill. While I have played more mafia games than you, I do not, and pretty much never have considered myself to be a good player. I often get tunnel vision, and my performance in past games have highly depended on my role.
'Mymop' said:
This makes it seem as though you've only said I'm not so suspicious in order to avoid getting lynched. Are your reasons for suspecting me the same as what you've said before, or is there something that you haven't mentioned yet?
My reasons for suspecting you are the same as before, which is part of why I don't suspect you as much now. A lack of new evidence, combined with seeing previous evidence from a different viewpoint (you being a noob), and you not hammering me at L-1 have all helped your case. I wrote those hypothetical scenarios about me getting mislynched while mistakenly thinking Kro was referring to a different post than he actually was, so they aren't particularly useful in context of what Kro was actually referring to.
'Krotomo' said:
I was addressing a post you made before you decided to backpedal and why your approach to lynching is scummy.
My bad, guess I didn't follow the quotes back far enough
'Krotomo' said:
My argument has nothing to do with whether or not you currently claim to think mymop is scum, it's that you think it makes sense to vote for someone who's not your top scum candidate during a mislynch and lose scenario
I had already backed off of my Mymop tunnel vision by the time I voted for you. The three of you made it pretty clear that lynching Mymop was a bad idea. A town victory is a team effort. As you said two posts ago, town people have to figure out who's town and who's scum. I guess it took me longer to see the light as far as Mymop goes. Sorry?



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Jorster
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Saturday, April 14 2018, 2:51 am EST
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I just want to make sure that mymop understands that if there is no lynch today town loses. It will always be better to hammer someone even if you aren't convinced they're scum, because that gives a 50/50 chance of winning. Are you going to be active in 3 days to do that?

I seem to remember Isa telling Yaya to drop the godfather stuff at the end of a game a while back. Also, please point to what you mean by him failing to see the obvious, because I'm not sure what you mean.

In regards to the balance, you forget that there was a mafia rolecop. That's a very powerful role, and I feel that it offsets the other roles without needing a supposed miller. Isa is an experienced player and I think is smart enough to fakeclaim miller successfully to hide being mafia, for reasons stated previously, like knowing he'll almost always get investigated n1.


shos
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Saturday, April 14 2018, 11:27 am EST
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VOTECOUNT OF THE DAY

With 4 alive, it takes 3 votes to lynch.
Day ends in: April 17th, 6.00 p.m. INTERGUILD TIME.

Krotomo (2) - Yaya, Jorster.
Yaya (1) - Krotomo.

NOT VOTING:
Mymop.

Nobody is due prods.
  


Mymop
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Sunday, April 15 2018, 2:47 pm EST
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Kro: thanks for the link. Aside from that, what I was saying about Yaya is that while I agree that it was strange that he suspected me despite the investigation's result, he definitely knew that lynching me would be a bad idea:
'Yaya' said:
Strategically Kro would be a better person to lynch over Mymop, since as [Jorster has] clearly demonstrated, people are likely to believe his "confirmed townie" status. I just personally think Mymop is more suspicious.


As for Yaya's most recent post, I don't see anything that's definitely towny or suspicious. Trying to analyze his awareness that suspecting me draws suspicion onto him puts me in a wifom situation (am I using the term correctly?): his suspicion of me makes him look bad, so it would be a risky strategy for scum, but surely he knows that I'd think that, so if he's scum he might do it, etc.  


Spoiler:
Jorster
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Sunday, April 15 2018, 9:47 pm EST
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Mymop, please hammer. Barring a severe scumslip were not gonna get anything more out of this day, and the activity isn't high enough for that to really be a possibility.  


Jorster
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Sunday, April 15 2018, 10:14 pm EST
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Remember that Both of votes are needed to lynch scum.  


Jorster
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Sunday, April 15 2018, 11:02 pm EST
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Edit: both our votes


krotomo
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Sunday, April 15 2018, 11:04 pm EST
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'Yaya' said:
To be fair, experience=/=skill. While I have played more mafia games than you, I do not, and pretty much never have considered myself to be a good player.

You don't have to be a good town player to recognize that lynching mymop is bad... you just have to be somewhat competent. I'm not a good player either. It's highly unlikely that you'd get tunnel visioned to the extent where you'd fail to see that a mymop lynch is a bad move.


'Jorster' said:
I just want to make sure that mymop understands that if there is no lynch today town loses.

That's not true, is it? Pretty sure it's only mislynch and lose. Town still survives if there is no lynch.


'Jorster' said:
I seem to remember Isa telling Yaya to drop the godfather stuff at the end of a game a while back.

I wasn't able to find any post like this. And even if it does exist, one piece of advice from Isa and a total of two posts from Yaya over the six games he's played before this one is hardly indicative of Yaya having "godfather-based thinking." Yaya's made more posts suspecting mymop of being godfather in this current game than he's mentioned the godfather role over all his previous games combined. Jorster, you simply do not have the evidence to argue this "godfather-based thinking" defense of Yaya.


'Jorster' said:
In regards to the balance, you forget that there was a mafia rolecop. That's a very powerful role, and I feel that it offsets the other roles without needing a supposed miller.

This seems incredibly subjective, and based more on intuition than actual evidence or reason. You also seem to be under the assumption that shos created a perfect setup, which isn't necessarily the case. And again, Yaya's role is inconsistent with everyone else's.


'Jorster' said:
Isa is an experienced player and I think is smart enough to fakeclaim miller successfully to hide being mafia, for reasons stated previously, like knowing he'll almost always get investigated n1.

Again, can you link actual evidence? I did a quick search of all the Day 2s for games Isa has been in (which is when I assume a D1 investigation result would be revealed) and found nothing, though I might have missed something. The other claim you made based off of previous games on this site turned out to be unsubstantiated, so we can't just take your word for it.


'mymop' said:
Aside from that, what I was saying about Yaya is that while I agree that it was strange that he suspected me despite the investigation's result, he definitely knew that lynching me would be a bad idea:

'Yaya' said:
I'd prefer a Mymop lynch, but if the evidence seems fitting I am more than willing to vote for Kro.

Yaya said you were his top suspect. He clearly wasn't saying lynching you was a bad idea... he was saying the town was less likely to agree with it. He literally supported lynching you, even though that would be a bad idea for the town.


'mymop' said:
As for Yaya's most recent post, I don't see anything that's definitely towny or suspicious.

This is because he isn't actually making any real arguments, because the suspicion is on me and not him. All he has to do is sit back and do nothing while pretending to do something, so that's what he's doing. He hasn't brought up any actual evidence supporting any argument since over a week ago.


'Jorster' said:
Mymop, please hammer. Barring a severe scumslip were not gonna get anything more out of this day, and the activity isn't high enough for that to really be a possibility.  

I have no idea why you're calling for an early lynch of me. You've brought up essentially no solid evidence for me being scum. Your arguments in defense of Yaya are either super subjective (roles), or not evidence-based ("godfather-based thinking"). You argue that Yaya, as scum, wouldn't draw attention to himself by lynching mymop, but which is more likely: that Yaya, as town, failed to see that mymop (a cop-confirmed town) was probably town; or that Yaya, as scum, underestimated the extent that we would be against a mymop lynch? The latter is clearly a more subtle mistake than the former, and yet you see the former as more likely. That's nonsense. Your argument is based more so on your gut feeling than it is on the information we have available to us. You need to seriously reconsider whatever reasoning it is that has brought you to this point, because it's obviously flawed. I'm town, Yaya is scum. If it's not Yaya, it's you, which is possible considering the way you've twisted evidence to say things it clearly doesn't, and tried to rush a lynch. But at this point it's probably too late to consider that possibility.

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