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DroidFreak36
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Thursday, September 21 2017, 2:43 am EST
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Here's an idea I originally posted on Giovanni/HannahTheUsulFan's HATIC discord, but I think it deserves to be discussed here because it will also affect the HATPC Reborn campaign if I go with it.

The general idea is to incorporate HATPCR into the HATIC story and add a third game based on another event in the HATIC storyline, thus creating a connected trilogy of Hannah games:
(1) Hannah and the Pirate Caves Reborn
(2) Hannah and the Desert Caves (or something of the sort)
(3) Hannah and the Ice Caves Reborn (or whatever we end up calling it)

This post is gonna be long, so consider that your TL;DR. If you do want the full scoop, here goes:

----------

First of all, this whole storyline is heavily based on the HATIC storyline comic on Neopets. I highly recommend you check it out. Heavily featured in the storyline is the character Kanrik, who doesn't actually appear in either of the original games, but will have a larger role in the proposed trilogy, so pay attention to him. Here it is (requires flash): http://www.neopets.com/winter/plot_hic.phtml?chapter=1

Here's a synopsis that hits the relevant major points in case you didn't read it or need a recap:
(1) Galem, leader of the thieves guild, wants a particular treasure and sends his thieves to try to get it. Kanrik is one of those thieves.
(2) Hannah boasts about her exploits in the pirate caves in the tavern, while Kanrik overhears.
(3) Kanrik approaches Hannah with the map to Galem's treasure and tells Hannah it's a map to a cure for his dying village.
(4) Hannah and Kanrik set off to the lost desert to explore the ruins that the map pertains to.
(5) The explore the ruins, which contain traps and such
(6) Hannah accidentally steps on a hidden button which curses her and she falls off the walkway, but grabs onto the edge.
(7) She calls to Kanrik to help her, but he refuses and she falls into the pit.
(8) Kanrik and some other thieves take the treasure Galem is after, a sarcophagus. Meanwhile, Hannah conveniently stumbles upon a big red gem deeper in the ruins.
(9) Hannah gets out and finds a doctor who sends her to terror mountain because the plot requires it. Wait, actually Hannah decides to go to terror mountain on her own... and IDK exactly why. Not important, really. The plot requires it.
(10) Hannah passes out in the snow
(11) Armin finds and rescues her
(12) Kanrik finds out that the sarcophagus contains a "great beast" and releases it to try to take control of the thieves guild.
(13) He fails and is exiled to Terror Mountain while Galem teams up with the beast and they set off to Terror Mountain together, because at the heart of the mountain is a really big red gem that the beast wants to destroy and Galem wants. BTW that gem is keeping all of Armin's people alive or something. It's important, mkay?
(14) Kanrik stumbles across Hannah and Armin... and they end up teaming up because reasons
(15) They find their way to the heart of the mountain at the same time as Galem and the beast tunnel in.
(16) Big fight
(17) During the big fight, Hannah plugs the red gem she found earlier (which is the keystone to the heart of the mountain because plot) into the heart of the mountain and Armin's people wake up and they help out.
(18) Good guys win, yay!
(19) Oh, BTW Galem is dead and Kanrik becomes head thief, and Hannah's curse gets cured.

----------

You can probably already see where I'm going with that 3rd game added into the middle there - plot points 5 through 8 take place in a system of underground ruins in the Lost Desert that are riddled with traps and seem right up Hannah's alley in terms of game material. That game would feature Kanrik as an NPC who helps out Hannah for the first part of the game, then betrays her and leaves partway through, leaving Hannah to fend for herself in the later part of the game.

As for the full proposed storyline (including changes to HATPC's story, here goes:

(1) Armin's people are frozen in the mountain, as before. Unlike before, he knows about the keystone that will awaken his people, and HE has the treasure map to the desert ruins, not Galem/Kanrik.
(2) Armin seeks out aid to find the keystone. He comes to Kanrik in the tavern where Hannah works to ask for his help.
(3) Hannah overhears and volunteers to help. Thus we get the 3 major players together right off the bat.
(4) They set off together on a merchant ship to sail for the Lost Desert. However, Kanrik secretly hires a pirate ship to waylay the merchant vessel so he can take the map for himself, since he wants the treasure for himself and is the traitorous sort.
(5) The pirate raid goes off as planned and Hannah, Armin, and Kanrik are all captured by the pirates.
(6) Of course, Kanrik, being the one who hired them, gets released. He heads to the cell where Armin is held to seize his treasure map, but Armin doesn't have it because Hannah was borrowing it to examine it when the ship was attacked. So Kanrik heads to Hannah's cell instead.
(7) He arrives at the cell where Hannah was held only to find that she has picked the lock and escaped into the caves.

[HATPC Reborn happens]

(8) Hannah eventually escapes from the pirate caves and heads back to the tavern where she finds Kanrik.
(9) Kanrik says that the pirates eventually released him and Armin, that Armin went back to Terror Mountain to tend to his people, and that they should head to the dersert ruins without him. Hannah, of course, doesn't know that he's a traitor at this point, so they set off together.
(10) When they get into the ruins and get to the sarcophagus, Kanrik pushes Hannah off the edge. The whole curse subplot is kinda pointless so imma just ignore it. This happens partway through Hannah and the Desert Caves (or whatever we're gonna call it)
(11) Hannah, still in possession of the map, further explores the ruins in search of the keystone and finds it, then finds her way out. This is the second part of Hannah and the Desert Caves.
(12) Meanwhile, Kanrik grabs the sarcophagus, returns to the thieves guild, and attempts to overthrow the leader roughly as before.
(13) In the ensuing chaos, Armin, who was held in the thieves guild's custody since Kanrik transferred him there, escapes.
(14) Unlike in the original story, Kanrik succeeds and takes control of the thieves guild.
(15) He sets off for the heart of the mountain with the beast because a giant red gem sounds like a good haul to him.
(16) After Hannah escapes from the desert caves, she heads off to Terror Mountain to find Armin, and seeing as he's escaped from the thieves guild, they meet up.
(17) They set off to find their way to the heart of the mountain

[HATIC Reborn happens]

(18) When they find their way to the heart of the mountain, Kanrik and his thieves have also found there way there, with the beast in tow. Kanrik's thieves move to grab the heart/gem and the beast turns on them.
(19) Hannah sneaks in during the chaos and slots the keystone into the heart.
(20) Armin's people wake up, and together they drive off the thieves and defeat the beast

I think that this story
* Is cleaner than the original
* Incorporates HATPC, HATIC, and the new game into one overarching story
* Provides a better character for Armin since he's introduced sooner and instigates the story (Instead of Galem, who is basically written out of this version)
* Makes Kanrik into the villain he deserves to be rather than the guy who betrays everyone and then sorta gets redeemed because reasons

But I want to know what YOU think. So let me know.




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HannahTheUsulFan
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Thursday, September 21 2017, 11:04 am EST
Hanmin Ship Fan and Supporter

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Looks like there's support for the ideas. I've voted in favor, myself. !
Yimmy
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Thursday, September 21 2017, 12:10 pm EST
Resident Goody two-shoes

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this is dumb
What would this third game bring to.the table outaiede of story? Why seperate it and HATPC? For that matter, why even have HATPC and HATIC seperate. Having an ice trigger and an aarmin trigger in the level code would accomplish just about everything (except for snow and enemies, but it would be cool using this without the ice physics, or without Armin). Instead of splitting into three games for no good reason, merge em all into one, big complete game. After all, most of us here care about user levels, and adding a third game will give us less options than dimply adding to the first.


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DroidFreak36
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Thursday, September 21 2017, 5:00 pm EST
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There'd be more to the new game than just a reskin of HATPC. For one thing, it would include Kanrik as an NPC that assists you for the first part of the game, and for another thing it would have different trap mechanics. The brief section on navagating the desert ruins in the comic includes traps hidden in floors and walls, and I think I'll roll with that idea to create a new trap system for it. Rather than running exclusively on the destruction of tiles like HATPC's trap system, it would have a trap triggering system kinda like redstone in Minecraft, where traps and doors can be triggered by clocks, pressure plates, tripwires, etc. That's the general concept. That would bring a new way of designing levels to the table (Moreso than HATIC does, even).

And the idea of packaging all of these in one engine/client has occurred to me, but I'm not sure how easy that would be in practice. Certainly implementing HATIC levels in HATPC by just throwing a few flags would be doable, but the trap engine I have in mind for the new game would be different enough that it'd be hard to add it on top of the existing level code. Of course, adding it on top of the current level code would be ideal because that would allow level designers to mix and match the two systems, and, for instance, fire an arrow out of an arrow dispenser into a dynamite crate, or something devious like that. I think it might be doable to merge the systems into one engine, but then we'd probably run out of keyboard characters to represent tiles and have to resort to Unicode symbols. Not that that's an insurmountable hurdle, but it'd make designing levels in text a bit harder.




Quote:
Rictory for Ralkyon!

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DroidFreak36
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Thursday, September 21 2017, 6:54 pm EST
HATPC Reborn Dev

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On the topic of using unicode for the wiring in the new game, I looked up unicode characters and found this block:

I could probably use that for all wiring tiles, or at least a lot of them.




Quote:
Rictory for Ralkyon!

HATPC Reborn home page
DroidFreak36
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Thursday, September 21 2017, 6:59 pm EST
HATPC Reborn Dev

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I could use some of the geometric symbols for logic gates:




Quote:
Rictory for Ralkyon!

HATPC Reborn home page
Yimmy
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Thursday, September 21 2017, 9:45 pm EST
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Clocks, pressure plates, tripwires etc. can all be accomplished using what we already have, and solving how to make things like them work is the only enjoyment I can derive from making levels. A complex toolkit which can accomplish most things if understood is way less fun to build with than a simple toolkit that cana accomplish complex things if understood well. Also, a simple toolkit is way easier for a new person to pick up than logic gates and stuff. I can confidently say, I'd never dip my feet into level making if the good levels were all filled with stuff I barely understood.

If it's built using entirely different mechanics, it's a Hannah game in little more than the main character. I wouldn't mind as much if it didn't have the Hannah title slapped on it. If I was new, and came here from/for HATPC and I see this brand new Hannah game with more features I'd assume it obsoletes the old one, and try to learn it instead even though it's a sequel in little more than name. What's more, if I was introduced to the series in HATDC  and didn't like it, I'd likely give up on the series as a whole, assuming since the names are nearly identical, the other games would be similar.

Traps hidden in floors and walls, huh... This idea sounds atrocious, but that may be due to lack of information, so I won't get into that

Sorry if I sound rude or negative but I'd hate to see your time wasted on a bad idea, or trying to improve a game that I don't think needs improvement
or i just hate change who really knows


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DroidFreak36
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Thursday, September 21 2017, 10:14 pm EST
HATPC Reborn Dev

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'Yimmy' said:
A complex toolkit which can accomplish most things if understood is way less fun to build with than a simple toolkit that cana accomplish complex things if understood well.

I plan to make is a simple toolkit. When I say "Logic gates" I don't mean complicated stuff, I mean something similar to how basic Minecraft redstone works. That is, you'll have a buffer (like a RS repeater in Minecraft), inverter (like a RS torch in Minecraft)... and that's about it. Well, there'll be some sort of timing/clock element(s) too, but there won't be complicated tools. I'm not trying to make RedPower here, just the basic tools you need to do logic operations.

'Yimmy' said:
Traps hidden in floors and walls, huh... This idea sounds atrocious, but that may be due to lack of information, so I won't get into that

Yeah, IDK about making them actually hidden to the player, but they should give the impression of hidden traps. Something like secret area maybe, where they are visually distinct from terrain but only if you look closely. I'm not sure if the wiring itself should also be visible to the player. In a certain sense, it should be possible for the player to figure out what a trap does by observation if it's a puzzle game, so maybe.




Quote:
Rictory for Ralkyon!

HATPC Reborn home page
soccerboy13542
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Friday, September 22 2017, 2:20 pm EST
~*~Soccer~*~

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real talk Hannah and the Wardrobe of Adventure Reborn or what?


'Livio' said:
You know, I was thinking of getting an internship at Microsoft, but I'm not sure I want their lameness to rub off on me.
krotomo
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Friday, September 22 2017, 5:16 pm EST
The Shepherd

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wow, I forgot they actually made that.
aych bee
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Friday, September 22 2017, 10:41 pm EST
when i am king

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you forgot the part where hannah marries karnik


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DroidFreak36
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Saturday, September 23 2017, 1:11 am EST
HATPC Reborn Dev

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'aych bee' said:
you forgot the part where hannah marries karnik

I'm just gonna let you and Giovanni fight that one out.

Although for my part I'll say that Kanrik's story arc in the original plot kinda makes no sense. He betrays everyone, and then suddenly Hannah is just like "Uh, I'm tired of trying to fight you so you're ok now" and then he's a good guy just like that. Seems fishy to me.




Quote:
Rictory for Ralkyon!

HATPC Reborn home page
DroidFreak36
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Saturday, September 23 2017, 1:19 am EST
HATPC Reborn Dev

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Unless you're talking about this:

...in which case I'll point out that Kanrik has black hair, so that's not actually him.




Quote:
Rictory for Ralkyon!

HATPC Reborn home page
Yimmy
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Saturday, September 23 2017, 12:25 pm EST
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Quote:
I plan to make is a simple toolkit. When I say "Logic gates" I don't mean complicated stuff, I mean something similar to how basic Minecraft redstone works. That is, you'll have a buffer (like a RS repeater in Minecraft), inverter (like a RS torch in Minecraft)... and that's about it. Well, there'll be some sort of timing/clock element(s) too, but there won't be complicated tools. I'm not trying to make RedPower here, just the basic tools you need to do logic operations.

still don't see the point, quite frankly. I guess it could be a little faster than arrows, but it doesn't seem to allow for much more than what we have, as far as I can tell


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aych bee
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Saturday, September 23 2017, 6:09 pm EST
when i am king

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man when did yimmy turn into imtimi


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soccerboy13542
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Saturday, September 23 2017, 7:20 pm EST
~*~Soccer~*~

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maybe he has always been...imyimi


'Livio' said:
You know, I was thinking of getting an internship at Microsoft, but I'm not sure I want their lameness to rub off on me.
DroidFreak36
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Sunday, September 24 2017, 3:59 am EST
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'Yimmy' said:
still don't see the point, quite frankly. I guess it could be a little faster than arrows, but it doesn't seem to allow for much more than what we have, as far as I can tell


It will allow for more than what we have in that it will allow for permanent, repeatable traps and mechanisms rather than one-time use mechanisms. For instance, every time you step in a certain spot, it throws an arrow. Or in order to open a door, you need to have someone standing on the button.


And yes, I realize that you Interguild folks are mostly interested in user levels, but there are a lot of people out there who are interested in other stuff. So a good story and a good campaign mode are essential, in my opinion. I'm trying to make a game that's a solid all-round game, not just hack together an engine for you guys to build user levels for. User levels are an important part of the game, for sure, but not the only part of the game.

And don't worry, I still have plenty of features for you guys coming down the pipe.




Quote:
Rictory for Ralkyon!

HATPC Reborn home page
Yimmy
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Sunday, September 24 2017, 8:31 am EST
Resident Goody two-shoes

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mmmmm
I guess I see your point. I still don't think it's necessary but I'll concede.

(good story and good campaign are essential for no game and honestly make me lose interest in gamed wayyyyy faster BUT I'm well aware that's just personal preference idk how others feel

'aych bee' said:
man when did yimmy turn into imtimi


is this the part where I ask for a couple thousand dollars and then leave


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Mymop
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Sunday, September 24 2017, 2:21 pm EST
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'Yimmy' said:
good story and good campaign are essential for no game and honestly make me lose interest in gamed wayyyyy faster BUT I'm well aware that's just personal preference idk how others feel

I think that depends on what type of game it is. In a game like HatPC I don't care at all about the story, but in RPGs it's often one of the most important parts of the game. Aside from that, I like the idea of repeatable traps and stuff, as long as it's not too complicated.  


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HannahTheUsulFan
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Wednesday, September 27 2017, 1:00 pm EST
Hanmin Ship Fan and Supporter

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Reply to: http://www.interguild.org/members/forums/jump.php?to=1506143968: There's also the commonlly overlooked factor that we're looking at the bride's left side. If The Neopets Team wanted to confirm the Hannah and Kanrik ship, they would have showed the bride's right side, with the scar still showing. However, I think they did this on purpose to keep ship wars from happening. I think there's also another point to point out: The groom's hair is much longer and more visible than Kanrik's hair. Kanrik has a very short hairstyle, while the groom in the image has long hair.

Reply to:
Quote:
Although for my part I'll say that Kanrik's story arc in the original plot kinda makes no sense. He betrays everyone, and then suddenly Hannah is just like "Uh, I'm tired of trying to fight you so you're ok now" and then he's a good guy just like that. Seems fishy to me.
: I agree. In reality, an act of betrayal that nearly costs someone their own life is basically not good in anyone's personal relationship history. Seems to me that Hannah only asked Kanrik for help to deal with the situation, as just Hannah and Armin were outnumbered, and I figure she only requested that Kanrik help out to tip the odds in their favor. To me, Kanrik's act of betrayal has sealed the fate of their relationship. An important thing to note: Kanrik is never seen interacting with Hannah after helping Armin bring her to Taelia for healing. That speaks volumes in my opinion. Another thing I've noticed: Kanrik accepts leadership of the Thieves Guild. If he was genuinely apologetic to Hannah, he would have stepped down from the Thieves Guild. His accepting leadership of the Guild demonstrates he is still more loyal to the thieves.

Also, Hannah requested Armin's help in the heat of the moment for when the Bringer was about to attack her. If Hannah had feelings for Kanrik, I think she'd have asked for his assistance.

I think that Neopets has plot holes in their stories, and the Hannah and the Ice Caves Plot sure has inconsistencies. In all honesty, I think the evidence speaks for itself - Hanmin has far more potential than Hanrik.

That's why I support Hanmin over Hanrik in a heartbeat, anyday.
DroidFreak36
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Wednesday, September 27 2017, 3:35 pm EST
HATPC Reborn Dev

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I think the main reason people support Kanrik shipping is because he's more attractive and interesting, lol.

Hopefully in this version Armin will be a little more interesting.




Quote:
Rictory for Ralkyon!

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HannahTheUsulFan
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Wednesday, September 27 2017, 4:00 pm EST
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True.
Yeah. I get the feeling you're right.

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