i dont think jorster is scummy. jorster changed from one person he had read as scum to another. i made it explicit that i wanted more pressure on mymop and i don't mind jorster's support on that wagon because it's consistent with his previous reads and calls. i have town vibes from jorster and do not support votes on him - especially if they come from someone who also finds mymop scummy, those votes could be spent better elsewhere (on mymop; i want the pressure to build).

i do agree, however, that i don't think mymop and rg are scum together (as ive said i think rg is bad/inexperienced town). im tired now but tomorrow i will look over atvelonis and yimmy a bit. i dont really have reads one way or the other on those at the moment.

also to soccer, there's nothing bad about L-1. what's bad is uncalled for hammers dropping, but that doesn't mean L-1 is bad. please do indeed vote for mymop one more time, folks.


ninjad TWICE

jorster we have no flips and 4 pages of content. i don't recommend trying to find the entire scum team in one swoop based on mutual interactions alone, especially when the case can be changed to fit an already sought-after solution ("isa and soccer are scum, so their interactions are scummy").
if everyone holds me as town (which they seem to do atm), why is it scummy that soccerboy does? because i went after him? then what's scummy about me going after him? is my actual logic used incorrect?

i think you started out with a pre-made hypothetical and tried to fit the evidence to support your view here. i do not recommend it.

I wasn't seriously presenting that as something I thought, it was purely a hypothetical. I think it's important that we keep all possibilities open though, however unlikely

I'm still leaning towards Soccer being innocent, though I'll admit that I'm still operating on the assumption that RG2 is scum while Mymop isn't. Soccer being scum makes sense only if he's working with Mymop, which would mean that he's using Jory as a distraction to save Mymop from a potential lynch. I wish Mymop would post more; if he was trying to assert his innocence in his latest post, then he didn't really succeed. I find it odd that he expects us to think that he has a reputation for "bloodthirstiness," because I had never associated his personality with that trait (then again, I've never interacted with him in any significant capacity, nor have I ever played Minecraft; others would probably be a better judge in that regard). I'd also like to point out that he did not directly address Isa, although he did respond to everybody else's concerns.

And yeah I feel like Jory's just throwing possibilities around. I wouldn't put too much stock in that and I doubt it'll actually do much harm to Isa or Soccerboy if they're actually innocent, because the consensus is against Mymop at the moment and I feel like the only way that will change is if Mymop comes out to give a really good justification for his behaviour, or if RG2 slips up enough to provide more evidence that he's scum.

^^im with jorster. if you have an idea there's no reason not to share it

I'm not too fond of Soccer's excuse for not actually providing thoughts (not sure whether the signs pointed to bad town or scum). Not being entirely sure on a read is no reason to conceal your thoughts. Getting 8 other peoples views on them can rarely hurt. It looks more to me like you rushed to make a case after being called out for fluff, but tried to avoid bandwagonning . Saying Jory's been flying under the radar is also overly antagonistic because the only post you used to justify your vote was made not 2 hours ago.

Mymops explanation of expecting a more lighthearted game is believable. Now that you have a better idea of how this game is, please share some thoughts.

I'm with Isa on Soccer's case for Jory. I also feel Jory's vote on Mymop was more a pressure vote than an "i want him dead asap" vote.

Aych bee: Why is both RG and Jory being town too straightforward? I also disagree on your logic with mymop definitely not being scum with jory or RG as even if your teammate does get lynched, then you're one of the leading forces on that wagon which distances you substantially

also lookit that rocketguy finally made a stance on something and it's... just following the person people are least suspicous of.

RG is still my highest suspect, but Soccerboy is making his way up there

Throwing your partner under the bus is a very powerful scum tactic. Someone being early on a wagon on scum doesnt mean they're town.

To clarify I agree with Yimmy on this.  

Re: Yimmy. I guess straightforward isn't the best word to describe what I was thinking. But if you assume that Jory and RG2 are both innocent then it means that they're both essentially following Isa and taking his word as law. Full disclosure here, the major reason that I don't buy it is because I'm still suspicious of RG2, who claims to have voted for Mymop because "[h]as literally done nothing to help out with the game," even though one could say the same for RG2 himself.

Also, if you take a look at the tree diagram Soccer posted on the last page, you'll see that having one of the scum die on Day 1 raises Town's chance of winning from 30% to 54% percent, so I highly doubt a scum would risk getting their partner lynched this early on. Even disregarding that factor, their interactions really don't feel like those of people who are on the same team. If I can say that I'm completely confident of anything at this point, it's that RG2 and Jory aren't working together.

Ninja'd by Jory, but my point still stands.

Correction: Rocket guy would be sheeping isa. I had reads posted before Isa asked for votes

I tried to give you guys an explanation in my last post, but apparently it wasn't enough. The reason that I don't post a whole lot is that I'm not confident in my ability to start a discussion, and I usually don't feel like I have enough information to be able to make a meaningful reply to everyone's theories. I've only posted in reply to people bringing up concerns about me because that's what I'm most able to answer. Anyway, thanks to Jorster for mentioning what he meant by "nothing but fluff" and "RVS".


I'd like to point out that I've not played a Mafia game on the Interguild before— RG is no less experienced than me.
Isa, if there are any more things that make you suspect me, please specify them.  

@mymop

mathematical proof that your reasoning for not posting is faulty: if you post nothing then you contribute nothing. if you make a post that fails to start a discussion you've contributed something. something > nothing

I would've expected a more panicked response from scum, but as is you're hindering the town. Please contribute.
(if you really don't know what to look for at all, feel free to study previous mafia games. it's what I did)

Ok then, I'll try and post a bit more.  

I remain most suspicious of RG. Mymop made a few odd comments above, but to me they feel primarily like inexperience, not malevolence. He obviously isn't familiar with much of the lingo, at any rate. Or this could be an intentional tactic to throw us off.

Yimmy I would say that bad contributions are more harmful to the town than staying silent, which is suspicious enough on its own. But saying anti-town-leaning stuff actually gives others more ammo to use against you. But I agree that Mymop seems pretty calm in the face of all these accusations, especially for a first-time player. Now that Mymop's stated his opinion I want to see RG2 taking a stab at actually defending himself instead of making irrelevant comments.

here's a wild guess though. What if atvelonis and Mymop are the scum team and they're talking to each other IN REAL LIFE, and atvelonis is giving pointers to Mymop to make him seem less suspicious. I mean that's suuuuper unlikely unless Shos planned this in advance because he wants to take us all for a ride, but still.

i'll post more in just a sec, but i wanted to address this really quickly. typically in mafia, you are not allowed to talk about the game outside of the game. this is so that shos can monitor all activity. if this is the case, it would be kinda bad, though i'm not sure anything could be done about it.

Okay atvelonis, if you're most suspicious of rocketguy why aren't you voting him? Using votes to apply pressure is town, if you're scumreading someone vote them

Was wondering if anyone would say this haha. Not something to worry about, no mafia discussion is happening between us in real life. Seems to be an unspoken rule that you keep it all on the thread, very unsportsmanlike to do otherwise.


I'm suspicious of him, hence my FoS earlier, but I'm still kinda hesitant to make a definitive vote early in the day (we have until the 28th, no?). Is the finger of suspicion not a form of pressure itself?

so, thoughts since my last post. as far as getting mymop to L-1, isa, i must've misread your intentions. i didn't really view mymop as scummy, more so as inexperienced, so i thought that you were trying to get people to bandwagon on mymop based on a flimsy claim to see who would quickly support. it seems i am mistaken.



in response to mymop, the thing is, the only information aside from this thread you get from your role. other peoples' posts are all speculation, too, so you can't be inactive because of not being informed. it doesn't work like that.

as for starting a discussion, you don't necessarily always have to start every theory. just posting your input on everyone will suffice, as has been done by many others in the thread.



lol @ mathematical proof.
while there is some reasoning there... there are reasons other than being mafia that mymop would want to avoid being lynched, such as being town and, well, not getting lynched. if he continues to post fluff, however, i would say a mymop lynch would not be the worst.



This is a fair assessment. i will say that i did post my initial thoughts on mymop here. the main people i've had suspicions of, i have commented on. mymop (above), rg (who never answered my question), isa (who i now believe to be town-leaning), and then jory (who i am still wary of). those who i have not commented on appear to me to be neutral.




If he is just feigning ignorance, that's really lame. That playstyle is very outside the spirit of the game, along the lines of people in the past who only post to prod-dodge, imo.


Overall:
I understand the reasoning behind vote-pressuring. I don't know if it has had a major effect. L-1 is totally acceptable to bring to, but i don't think it pressures an inexperienced player as much as it would on someone with mediocre experience. mymop has just been saying "well what did i do???" and doesn't seem all that concerned.

right now what i'm thinking is of mymop's first legitimate post. it wasn't good enough for most people. what would have been good enough? what could mymop have actually said that would undo the suspicions. i really can't think of anything that would be satisfactory, and that makes me wonder if the votes against him rn are no better than RVS. this worries me. maybe this is just how Day 1 goes, but still, it's concerning.

Also, just a note on common courtesy: If you are the one to bring someone to L-1, make it known in that same post where we can see.

I will post again later tonight, but i have to grab dinner rn.

atvelonis, I don't see why you're so hesitant to vote for RG2. Considering that he currently only has one vote (which is mine), and Mymop has three - and a lot of players seem to be pretty convinced of Mymop's guilt, including Isa - it's not like you'll be handiing him a death sentence.

re: Soccer. I'd be willing to switch my vote to Mymop to bring him to L-1, depending on RG2 behaves in his next post. I'll provide a more detailed response later, the main purpose of this post was to comment on atvelonis' unwillingness to vote.

@hb a quiet townie is a waste of a slot whereas a scummy townie is an ample source of discussion, which will at least help come day 2. Both will be highly suspected.

@Atvelonis The difference in pressure from a FoS to a vote is very substantial. If everybody FoS'd me I'm still in no real danger, but at L-2, no response would be unwise.

@soccer what does your reply to my advice to mymop have anything to do with what I said?

As for saying you've voiced suspicions on people:
Your thoughts on mymop boiled down to parroting what others said. Your arguments main points are preceded by "as others said" and "like jory said", to prove my point.
As for RG, you did nothing but ask him two questions. That's not voicing suspicion.
Where did you voice suspicion of Isa? The closest I could find was you saying "this might look scummy but it's not so don't worry about it" (and the miller thing but saying that that was a suspicion is pushing it)
Why did it look like pushing for the day to end when jory voted but not when Isa told people to vote?
either im missing something or your defense is seriously flawed.

vote: soccerboy13542

What Yimmy said. an FoS does diddly squat for pressure, as there's no real consequences to being FoS'ed, whereas with a vote there's a chance of getting lynched.

An unused vote is useless, using votes gets reactions/scumslips from people, which in turn gives the town more information.

Shos: please give votecount

@mymop Post a reads list please.

Actually, anyone who hasn't done so yet please post a readlist.  

as for your reply, i had a sentence that i had meant to put in there, but had to leave and wanted to at least get my thoughts out there. i meant to put in more clarification.



First of all, your post is not a proof. I don't know why you called it that. it should have said "there are reasons other than being mafia that mymop would want to not contribute, such as avoiding getting lynched while being town." if he were to contribute something bad, it would be anti-town.

You just posted:



which leads me to believe you're even more misguided. Having a townie with scum-tells is not good in this game. Discussions are good, but you seem to imply here that it would be better to have more discussion, even if it leads to a townie being seen as scum. To clarify: I'm not saying that mymop should lay low/not post/etc. He should be trying to put forth quality posts in increasing amounts. But you can't say that more posts are inherently better than fewer posts, and use that as the basis of your argument. There shouldn't be a problem with me not wanting an innocent townie to get lynched for no reason.

In response to your other part of your post:

1.) Timing has a large part of it. There's nothing wrong with "parroting", as you call it. My literal reaction to seeing mymop's post was just a disheartened "what is this" Jory summed that up pretty well in the post right after mymop's.

2.) You seem to have a problem that I share similar beliefs with others and then also because I asked RG questions, but equate this to me not having posted suspicions. The whole point of me asking rg a question was because i found his behavior suspicious. I thought this was obvious. If he had answered, I would've even been able to assess it :O

3.) my suspicion over isa was in reference to his miller claim. you chose to instead use "evidence" to support your argument of when i later said that i thought he was town. the post in which i had read him as town is not what i was referring to.
when i had posted my suspicions, i had said that i was inclined to believe his claim, but also unsure whether to. being suspicious does not mean definitively saying they are scum. any bold claim should be met with suspicion, and as such, i voiced my suspicions and directly mentioned that we should talk more about his claim, to try to further discussion.

4.)



If this is not clear, I will try to elaborate on it.

I was under the belief that Isa rallied votes on mymop in order to see which individuals would quickly follow suit, rather than to actually get votes on mymop. This was because of my impression that mymop had not really done anything scummy; rather, his posts were just flat out bad. Because of this, my suspicions went to Jory, who had voted against mymop with only having said "nothing but fluff" and "What kind of post is that. Be pro town please". I have since recognized that this was not the intention of Isa's post after Isa had addressed it. As such, my reasoning was that Isa was using a tactic to try to get scum to reveal themselves, implicating Isa as being pro-town and those who followed as anti-town.

Perhaps, I am being too forgiving towards the inexperienced players? I would say that this is valid, and if you have any thoughts on this matter, you would be a good candidate to say so since (I believe) this is your first game, and you have done a good job of staying up to date with consistent postings.

NINJA'D BY JORY: will address in another post since this is long.

I can see why a FoS would have significantly less pressure, but I would think that if it were used en masse, it would still indicate pressure which couldn't be ignored. Although, I can't recall if FoS are included in vote counts. If they aren't, they probably would be less useful. At that point, why even have it though?

If literally EVERYONE thought you were suspicious, would you really not care to make a response?

Perhaps this would be a good time for clarification, as up until this point (throughout all mafia games), I've mostly used FoS as a means of indicating suspicion. I thought this was the point of them, but if they are effectively useless, they shouldn't exist in the first place.