I understand that checkpoints are going to be hard to implement, both for programmer and cavemaker. However, I think that this addition would make the game a lot more playable and enjoyable and would allow more of peoples' work to be seen. I spent a little time thinking about how they could be used in the cavemaker and I thought of a few crazy systems involving ordering and decimals to compensate for unusual cave layouts, but I realised that a simpler approach was best. Here are my ideas about how checkpoints should be presented as an option in the Aeon cavemaker:

1. Checkpoints should be adjustable invisible rectangles. They could be a single tile or several in a row.

2. Checkpoints should be able to be placed over other tiles as a sort of 'ghost tile'.

3. Whenever a player encounters a checkpoint and then dies, they will return to that checkpoint. There won't be any need for ordering checkpoints throughout the map; players will always return to whatever checkpoint they went to last. This is the simplest solution for caves that have non-linear layout and backtracking.

4. There should be a time limit between usages of a checkpoint. The game may pause briefly when players reach a checkpoint; to prevent constant pausing if the player goes back and forth through the same checkpoint, it should become inactive for a certain time limit. This should be able to be set by the cavemaker.

5. One option for the cavemaker is to make a checkpoint that uses the 'snapshot' method of recording the location of all stationary tiles. Any tiles in the process of moving will have to be returned to their starting position or be deleted if this is not possible. This option should be taken if the cavemaker knows that the cave will be guaranteed to be in a certain state; in other words, they will know the location of the majority of tiles when the player hits the checkpoint and will also know that there shouldn't be any moving tiles at this stage either.

6. A second option for the cavemaker is to set the location of all tiles for an individual checkpoint. When this option is chosen, a new window comes up with an exact copy of the cave that they have made so far. Once set to the desired state at the exact moment at which the player hits the checkpoint, it can be saved as a separate checkpoint file that is opened whenever the player comes back to life after dying past that particular checkpoint. This way, the cavemaker has total control over the location of tiles and ensures that no accidental deletions or misplacements of moving objects occur. This option could fail in non-linear caves because objects that were moved by players at a previous stage may be reset after passing through a checkpoint and dying.

7. Regarding 5 and 6, a window will pop up when a checkpoint is made that gives the choice of either option.


This is all I can think of so far; I don't think it's possible to create a 'perfect' checkpoint system for this game unless we somehow develop technology that can capture the location of moving objects. Until that time, this is the best I've got.

well i agree about 1-4, but i don't think i fully understood 5&6. can you explain what do you mean in thsoe and why?

When you make a checkpoint, a window should pop up that gives you one of two options. First option: take snapshot of the cave and recreate the locations of all the objects when the player first hit the checkpoint. Second option: let the person who makes the cave choose how the cave looks when the player comes back to life at the checkpoint.

I'll create that discussion forum now. This would fit right in there. I'll read this after I've done that.

About option 5 and 6, it might be possible for Accel to create a savestate of sorts. The game will copy all the temporary memory data. I don't know how flash works, but if you play a ROM through an emulator you make a savestate by copying the RAM data (I think at least it's the RAM date) and loading it later. You will load the game exactly as you saved it, with all the objects still in the exact same actions.

I agree with points 1, 2 and 3 and I think 4 will require testing to find the best sollution. I'd also like it, if when a player dies, he gets the choice of continueing from the checkpoint or starting again from the start. This could be useful if the player made a mistake.

I pulled this out of the checkpoint topic on the old forum:


Idea: Checkpoints

Description:
Checkpoints will likely work as follows:

1) When you pass a checkpoint, they are not immediately activated. You must press a button (say, up, for example) to get it to work. Optionally, you will then be asked to comfirm this action.

2) Optionally, a set amount of treasure could be required to activate a checkpoint, so that players don't save when they don't know that they've missed treasures. Alternatively, you could force them to find more treasures so as to make the checkpoint harder to make use of. Of course, they could have screwed up else where, not just on treasures.

3) When you die and you have lives remaining, you are asked it you would like to continue from the last activated checkpoint. Selecting no will restart you from the beginning of the level. Optionally, selecting Quit will return you to level selection.

4) When a checkpoint saves your progress, a snapshot must be taken of the entire game. All relavent data must be copied into a "back-up", if you will. When restarting, the "back-up" must be copied back into the game. How long will this take? Hopefully not too long. There'll be more data to capture that when you load a level for the first time (enemy, arrow, falling object, debris, and rising water positions, to name a few), but, you won't have to read the map off the internet (for user-levels, at least). Possibly, you might be able to save time by not capturing stuff like the positions of terrain, which remain constant. The game should pause and give you some message about progress while this is taking place.

Thoughts: At first, there were complaints about this being forced on players. This has been resolved by making them completely optional for both players and creators. Also, people thought that it might be hard to implement, however, ideas are not being approved/rejected on the basis of feasibility (unlike "Included Ideas"). In the end, it came down to whether our game SHOULD have checkpoints. Most people seemed to agree that it should.

Outstanding Issues:
Should you be required to pick up a set about of treasure before being able to activate the checkpoints?

Concensus: Approve

Hmm... You know, you also could make it so that once you reach a certain amount of treasure, a checkpoint is activated.

With some of the harder caves being recently released, I think that we should not make it so that you have to press a certain button to activate it(so, in other words, you just pass over a checkpoint, and your checkpointed), but let there be an option to make checkpoints key-activated in user levels.

Here's the thing: If you mess up, and you know it, and then you come across a checkpoint... Well obviously you will not want to activate it, but you might want to continue playing anyway.

"You know, you also could make it so that once you reach a certain amount of treasure, a checkpoint is activated."
Didn't I just say that?

Yeah, but if you know it, then you'd restart before that checkpoint.

Maybe a "Go to checkpoint #" system could be implemented for puzzle caves and stuff.

You kinda did when you quoted it, but what you said is that you have to collect a certain amount of treasure before you can use the checkpoint; what I'm saying is that you make it so that there is no checkpoint in the cave, but when you collect a certain number of treasure, it automatically saves your progress

"it automatically saves your progress"
That's a bad idea too. So let's say I jump toward a POWER BOX and I collect it, but there's no way I can make it back? Now I'm check-pointed into certain doom. Clearly, you need to deliberately activate a checkpoint.

"Go to checkpoint #"
Wouldn't work, I don't think. You'd need a snap-shot for every checkpoint, and that could end up using craploads of memory, if I put a bunch of checkpoints into a level. It'd at best be able to save the last few checkpoints -- and it'd need to save a picture too, or something, so that you can see where in the level that checkpoint would be. I think the easiest and best system is to just save one checkpoint.

Well, we would just have to assume that nobody would be cruel enough to make a checkpoint like that. And either way, I'd hope you'd be smart enough to not to jump somewhere with no way of going back. But, it's probably not worth the effort, anyways; I can't see this being used very much.

It's funny, I was just reading the old checkpoint, and you INSISTED that checkpoints be made optional to the player.

I see that as a new dimension of gameplay being opened up. I mean, there are so many more new ways to play the game if this was introduced, though it wasn't confirmed yet. I'll be looking forward to this.

Yes, an option in the menu would do fine.

And as I've already said before, this rampage of caves I cannot get anywhere in has changed my views on checkpoints pretty dramatically. before I was against them; now, I can't wait until aeon comes around, and I can actually play a cave.

I think the best way is to just, put a check-point tile on the ground, you step into it, press up, and then it makes a checkpoint. You -could- be asked to confirm, in case it was pressed accidentally. When you die, you get asked if you want to continue from the last checkpoint, and if you say no, you start from the beginning. If we have a lives system, when you run out, your current scores are reset and you are forced to restart from the beginning of the level.

I say there should still be an option to allow checkpoints to activate automatically, in the menu or something.

I think there should be activate checkpoints and non activate checkpoints

I've been doubting about button activated checkpoints too.
If there is a checkpoint in the middle of a speedy section, it would distract the player to press up.
But if there is a non-linear puzzle cave and the player messes and accidentally steps on a checkpoint, he won't be able to continue from the previous checkpoint anymore.
In my opinion, we shouldn't have button-activated checkpoints. If a player accidentally steps on a checkpoint and thus makes the cave impossible, it's his own problem. He should have just restarted or suicided earlier.
Either way, you should always have the option to start over from the beginning again.

About the checkpoint itself, I suggest we make it a solid tile. It would look something like a glass pad in a metal casing, similar to most teleport pads. If a player steps on it, the snapshot will be made.

I thought the same thing about speed traps, which is why I suggest we add an option in the main menu or something to make them automatically activate, or activate on command

But I don't think that would solve anything. Most people probably won't bother with that option and when you find out its better to turn it on (or off), it is usually too late.

Then make it set to "automatic" as its default.

I think we should give the checkpoint tile different options: one on whether it moves like a regular crate or if it's constant like terrain, and another one for if tiles should be able to fall on or through the checkpoint.

anyway, when you reach a checkpoint, I think that it should pause the game and ask you if you'd like to record your position. Within that pause screen, there can be a checkbox or something that says "don't ask again".

as for the actual recording process, I think our best bet would be to make it take a "snapshot" of the map, and record the information in its own way. The backup plan could be to make the user make multiple maps (which sounds like we could make some totally crazy stuff by simply abusing this), but I don't like how such an idea would take so much file size, especially for larger maps, where you'll be duplicating a huge map several times.

I think it will be possible to make it record falling objects and all kinds of stuff as long as I make it track that stuff. It depends on how I code the pause thing, actually, because it's not as easy as telling Flash to stop everything. I may have to keep track of everything's actions anyway, unless I code everything, even animations, around its own timer which I can then stop, speed up, and slow down at my will, but I'm not sure since it just may end up unnecessarily taking more processing power, leading to the game running slower? I will experiment on that...

The way I see it, checkpoints should pretty much be like tutorial arrows, except that when objects fall over them, they're still visible and they don't just disappear. Just to mark where the checkpoints are. I don't think that we should have a checkpoint crate; that would just be silly. And it cannot be moved, too.

It should not pause the game, unless you select an option that will do so(so that if it happens in the middle of a trap, it doesn't throw off the players timing or something).

Maybe a checkpoint should be like a pole with a sign on it. A sign with a red border and a life symbol on it?

the reason I wanted an option for a checkpoint-type crate is that you can make sections that can sort of "unlock" the checkpoint. Except that there would be no collisions between you and the checkpoint, it's just for the purposes for moving. Another cool idea for an option would be to make a "Steel Checkpoint" where you'd have to break it before you gain access to it.