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Unofficial Plan

Stage 1: Plan introduction of concepts and controls <- Current Stage
Stage 2: Plan difficulty curve of levels and worlds <- Skipped Ahead to This Stage
Stage 3: Plan worlds and concepts introduced in them <-What? We didn't even finish stages 1 and 2!
(Over here, Level Development stops until all tiles and controls have been tinkered with and are ready for level designing to start)
Stage 4: Plan world designs and order of worlds <- Aeon isn't even ready and we're doing this already?
Stage 5 : Plan level designs and order of levels<- GAAAH I GIVE UP TRYING TO ORGANIZE THIS
Stage 6: Place levels to their respective worlds
Stage 7: Make introductory levels
Stage 8: Make levels (includes gimmicky levels)
Stage 9: Make worlds
Stage 10: Let Livio insert the worlds into the game.
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Yaya
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Sunday, January 8 2012, 7:37 pm EST

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*jumps into discussion randomly and uneedingly*
I think it'd be cool if we had a few levels where the difficulty changed depending on what character you had. Like it'd be the easiest to beat with the set's character, and progressively harder as the characters became more unfit. I mean how easy would it be to beat a water level with the flight character, or some other unwieldy combo? I mean, we don't need separate paths for them, they'd just have to make due with the extremely unfitting circumstances. It'd be like a water-level in HATIC that centered around Armin needing to swim. And these wouldn't need to be mandatory, but at least maybe offer a reward or challenge to the hardcore players.
*jumps out of discussion*



COMING SOON: A giant meteor. Please.
Give me +karma. Give me +karma.
jazz
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Thursday, January 12 2012, 8:31 pm EST

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That'll be cool... but it'll be difficult to make the levels fit with all characters and stay all complex.
Livio
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Thursday, January 12 2012, 10:28 pm EST

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Okay, I'm finally taking the time to catch up on this conversation so let me reply to some old posts first.

'jellsprout' said:
Looking at your step plan in the header post, how can we even discuss a difficulty curve without being able to test it yet? Or do you intend for us to say stuff like "the levels get harder later in the game"?

Skipping ahead to Step 3, I have an example for how the levels could be set up:

[spoiler list]

With this set-up, there will be exactly 2 levels in the game (1 Tutorial, 5x3 character sets, 1 Final and 3 Bonus). There is almost no overlap in the level styles between these levels, while still including all the important ones. You could also be introduced to all concepts in the game in under an hour by playing the tutorial and first level of each set. The levels themselves are also varied enough to keep the player interested all the way through and should give the player plenty of inspiration for their own levels.
If people can't get enough, we can always release a Player's Pack with 10 levels for each character later.
I think it's odd that you're introduced to the game with Hugsy, and then you basically never see him again. Players will think Hugsy is the main character or something, and throughout the whole experience they'll be expecting him to show up again any minute now. While this might make it more exciting when you finally find him again on the moon, it's really something that irritates you the whole way through. Furthermore, we don't even know if players will remember who Hugsy even is by the time they find him.

'jellsprout' said:
And your post has given me a new idea on how to do the levels. How about you start with the first five levels unlocked, but you need to beat all five levels to unlock the second level for each character.
So similar to your set-up, but levels 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 can be done in whatever order you want, but must all 5 be done before you unlock levels 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.
The problem with this is that we might be introducing the player to too many characters at once. I think it might be better to have them play maybe 2 or 3 levels with a character before moving onto the next one, and then they'll play a few levels with that character, and so on. We don't want to create a feeling where we're front-loading all of these characters and their mechanics. I think it's best if we introduce characters gradually throughout the experience.

I got an interesting idea. We could have a SMW-like map where you watch the world grow and change as you beat more levels, and in order to unlock new characters, you must "find" them in the world map, by unlocking new regions (each region introduces a new character). This forms almost a kind of secondary game where you're trying to figure out how to expand your map (by finding the secret gems or exits in each levels), and you get rewarded for making progress by getting introduced to new mechanics. Of course, the biggest problem with this idea is scope. It really demands that we make a lot of levels.

I'm thinking we have way too many characters for the ideal scope of the campaign. Maybe we should cut one or two out?

On the topic of whether or not to have a linear campaign, having the freedom to select from a number of new levels is great for when players get stuck on a challenging level, since this allows them to continue playing the game. The challenge is how to balance this freedom with a good difficulty curve. I think we should look at how other games have managed to do this in order to get a better idea. If I remember correctly, N did something like this.
Bmwsu
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Thursday, January 12 2012, 10:35 pm EST

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N had 100 levels (I'm pretty sure) and they broke them up into 20 or 25 level sections.  You could play the first level of any section, and beating that level would unlock the next level in that section.  So yes, they did what we are thinking about doing.


jazz
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Thursday, January 12 2012, 10:58 pm EST

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I wish all levels have some unique gimmick... it makes it interesting yah know?
Isa
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Friday, January 13 2012, 10:32 am EST
No. I'm an octopus.

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For the record, N had 500(!) levels. They were split into 10 different columns with 10 "episodes" in each column, each episode containing 5 levels. You started with the topmost episode in each column unlocked, and unlocked the one underneath after beating the previous episode in one go.

I agree with cutting a character. 3 is probably optimal rather than 5. 4 is fine.
jellsprout
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Friday, January 13 2012, 11:24 am EST
Lord of Sprout Tower

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If we cut two characters, then I suggest cutting two of Ivan, Jean and Rita. I think Rita would be hell to control, so I doubt anyone would like using her. Ivan is only really suitable for water levels, which are generally the most hated levels in any game, so I doubt he will get much use either. And Jean just doesn't seem unique enough. We already have Hugsy and Floyd for generic characters. Or we could cut all three and add a badger or bear "power" type character, who could push boulders without slowing down much and have less recoil when breaking through crates.


Spoiler:

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