I think we should have some options for the arrow tile. One idea would be an option to make it a "heavy arrow" which would get affected by gravity. So if you fire it it straight up for example, it'll eventually come back down. And if you fire it diagonally, it'll follow the curved path of a parabola.

Another option would be to make it a bomb arrow, which is self-explanatory. and that dynamite launcher idea can be replaced by the combined options of a heavy bomb arrow.

my last idea would be for acceleration (a missile?). This may just get used for evil traps, but it's cool. but it could also help in trap timing, I guess.

I thought we were going to be using missiles/lasers instead of arrows, because arrows are affected by gravity, and it wouldn't make sense for them to go in a straight line, and also because it wouldn't make sense for it to destroy and entire crate. In fact, I believe you were the one to suggest that.

I don't like the heavy arrow thing, but the accelerated missile, or just a missile, which would act like a propelled dynamite(destroy more crates) would be cool.

I actually don't remember if we made an official decision on the arrow/missile/laser thing, but the basic idea is to have 3 options: one for gravity, another for acceleration, and another for destructive power. all of which, I think are really cool and we should have

Destructive Power: APPROVE
Acceleration_3000: NEUTRAL
Gravity: REJECT

come on gravity is cool! especially when used with diagonal arrows.

hey, for the approve-reject system, does my vote even count?

Destructive Power: APPROVE
Acceleration_3000: NEUTRAL
Gravity: APPROVE

I still don't like them very much. Too hard to use for the new member. Well, maybe get it to go in the same path as--Hey, I thought we rejected diagonal arrows!!

I thought it went into neutral/semi-approve with the idea that if they hit the corner of two adjacent tiles, then both will be destroyed to make them easier to use

power: REJECT
gravity: APPROVE
accel: REJECT

YOU CAN'T REJECT ME

wait, that didn't sound right....

btw shos, I don't see how you won't like the idea of bomb arrows.

So, Livio, how does it feel to get rejected?

I actually APPROVE the idea of bomb arrow. but i don't think it'll be necessary - if it needs to hit X and explode, put a dynamite instead of what X stands for.

now, when i said accel, i meant i REJECT you, not the idea.







I do, however, reject the idea.

I was thinking about my "tile properties" idea earlier, and I was thinking about how I could make the editor as generic as possible, and include as many things as I could think of. This is a rough idea of what I came up with:


Methods of Destruction
Tiles will have any number of "methods of destruction", which will include any number of objects (projectiles, explosions, characters, water types, enemies, falling objects, etc) that, when they come into contact with the current object and from any number of directions, will dictate what occurs when the object is destroyed in this manner. "Methods of Destruction" will include, among possibly other things, a debris, any number of projectiles that could be released, and also an explosion -- I'm explaining these next.

Explosions
You can create any number of "explosions" and add one to a method of destruction. Using the explosion editor, you can control the various aspects of the explosion, including, say, how long it lasts for, how long it takes to occur after being triggered (good for controlling the speeds a dynamite chains or making a time bomb or something), and also the area it affects when it goes off (doesn't need to be circular -- you could use methods of destruction combined with an "explosion" to implement the affect of a boulder destroying neighboring platforms, remembering that the only objects that would include a method of destruction with this particular explosion inside would be other platforms).

Projectiles
You can create any number of "projectiles" and add them to the methods of destruction. Like explosions, and maybe methods of destruction, it'd have it's own editor (wouldn't be complex -- just a couple of textboxes and lists). Mainly, projectiles will have an initial horizontal speed, initial vertical speed, horizontal acceleration, and vertical acceleration. Of course, it'd also have a graphic, an optional debris, and an optional explosion.


I want you to note that a lot of the things we've discussed so far are possible under this system. First, both the current affects of both arrows, and dynamite crates are possible (Really? Boulders destroying platforms, too?), but also, arrow crates that fire multiple arrows, diagonal arrows, bomb-arrows, arrows that fire and different speeds, arrows that only destroy certain objects, and arrows that are affected by gravity. It's all in there. I hope it's not too confusing, because I see a lot of potential in this approach.

there is a ton of potential in that idea, but I had to read that post twice to make sure I wasn't confused...

the thing about that idea is that it makes things much more complicated, and the more complicated things are, the more likely things will get confusing or messy, so we'd have to design it all to be as user-friendly as possible. maybe make two different editors? A simple/default mode and a super-advanced mode. Another problem is: how will we know what all these custom tiles do? Maybe some visual cues on the sprites? or a list in the pause screen for reference? seems like a mess

I think we should simplify it by limiting such major properties of tiles to be decided by the mixing of the class system (wooden, steel, indestructible, flaming, floating, fragile, and so on), as suggested before, and then some few extra options can be specified (such as acceleration, speed, gravity). Then you can make things like wooden spikes, flaming boulders, diagonal fragile dynamite arrows, indestructible steel floating dynamite-- and because they use a class system, you know exactly what each tile would do when you hear its name. And since each class has its own visual aspects, you should hopefully be able to figure out what a tile is by looking at it. I'm thinking that maybe this can help lead to the same kind of tile customization but with less complications for the user.

Other options (like speed, aceleration, etc) will still be there, so you're not totally limited to the class system. In fact, we could just use classes as a "tile template" and almost follow with your idea and add a separate set of advance options, which may involve changing some of those larger aspects. For example, removing explosions from the list of things that can break that tile, or making its recoil ridiculously strong so it's like a spring? Or if you want to get super crazy, maybe the player can create his/her own classes from scratch but wait a minute, this is just supposed to be a simple flash platformer

Let me see if I can explain how a dynamite crate's methods of destruction would be configured under this system:

1) Methods: Arrow Left projectile, Arrow Right projectile, Arrow Up projectile, Arrow Down projectile, Dynamite explosion
Affects: Object destroyed, Wooden Crate Debris released, Dynamite Explosion occurs.

2) Methods: Character -- From Left
Affects: Object destroyed, Wooden Crate Debris released, Flying Dynamite Right projectile launched.

3) Methods: Character -- From Right
Affects: Object destroyed, Wooden Crate Debris released, Flying Dynamite Left projectile launched.

4) Methods: Character -- From Below, Character -- From Above
Affects: Object destroyed, Wooden Crate Debris released, Flying Dynamite Vertical projectile launched.


Or here's a platform:

1) Methods: Arrow Left projectile, Arrow Right projectile, Arrow Up projectile, Arrow Down projectile, Dynamite explosion, Neighboring Platform explosion
Affects: Object destroyed, Large Wooden Object Debris

2) Methods: Boulder falling object
Affects: Object destroyed, Large Wooden Object Debris, Neighboring Platform explosion released.

This one warrants a description of the platform explosion: It'll release no debris, have no stall time, is incapable killing characters, and affects only tiles to the left and right of it's origin.

now it's starting to sound like the program itself, instead of a user-friendly editor program, but I guess it depends on how we set up the user interface.

that's a much better description of your idea, though. So let's see, with that idea, I could make something like:

a boulder that can only be pushed to the right

a dynamite crate with spiked/poisonous/FLAMING edges so you are forced to hit it from the top

a steel crate that when falling turns into a bomb, which means that the landing animation will really be a dynamite explosion

wow this idea sure has a ton of potential. if only it wouldn't be so complicated and un-user-friendly. I mean we'd still have to figure out a way to let players know what's going on with that tile (visual cues?)

I was hoping that post would clarify. I don't know if there's really a need for multiple editors. What we'd do is, we'd have an HATPC-type editor ready to do, if they load the default file, and then they can just click to add the normal objects to the screen. But if you go deep into the menus or do some right clicking, you can get as advanced as you want. But if all you want is level properties and a grid, then you can get just that, as long as you don't try anything fancy.

You should note that the "class" system isn't really relevant either. If you want something to be in the wooden class, add methods of destruction with the characters in them. Metal? No characters. Fragile? Add all the falling objects to it. Indestructible? Make the methods of destruction... not actually destroy the tile. You COULD have a sort-of create-tile wizard, or something, that you can select a class, some typical properties, and it'll put all that complicated stuff together for you, but at its core, it'd still be this system.

"How will we know what all these custom tiles do?"
If somebody were to just release a single level to this game, then what they should do is not use any custom properties and such. If there's something they just HAVE to use, you know where the message crates are. What you CAN do though, if you want to use custom stuff like crazy, is make a large number of levels, and then include tutorials -- like you're playing a completely different game.

Woah, go easy on Livio; we need him to run this site and we don't want him having some kind of nervous breakdown from all the slagging off he gets.

now that would be something, but I don't like the idea of relying on extended projects as being the best way to use a such a feature.

What I meant about bringing up the class system is that we could use it as a simplified way of sharing major properties. I guess when I read your idea I assumed it's be like a list of tiles: "arrows, boulder, crates, ....." and then you'd have to specify all that crazy stuff. but what we could really do is make the simple system, probably with classes, and, like you said, just add options menus that you can edit the tile with.

lol @ jebby

Btw, I think it'd be amusing if there was a nuke mushroom cloud option for an explosion from a dynamite crate. With a limit of one to make sure it isn't abused.

"now it's starting to sound like the program itself, instead of a user-friendly editor program"
Yeah, when I thought this up, I was definitely thinking from a programming point of view. I was thinking of what I could do with the system, as a programmer, but not really how to present this to the user. But, since the possibilities would technically be possible with the structure of the program, I wouldn't want to limit the user from doing them, really...

"a boulder that can only be pushed to the right"
"a dynamite crate with spiked/poisonous/FLAMING edges so you are forced to hit it from the top"
"a steel crate that when falling turns into a bomb, which means that the landing animation will really be a dynamite explosion"

I'm curious as to how you'd implement that using what I just described, lol, because it doesn't sound like it fits. I guess, "method of destruction" doesn't really cut it, and "What happens when something touches me" would be a better name, lol. Add a few more possibilities like "destroy the destroyer, if possible" (which should be there, so then you could, like, allow arrows to destroy the objects and then pass through, or something), then yes. Have a better word for destroyer? What another word for something that comes into contact with things...

So:
"a boulder that can only be pushed to the right"
Tile: Identical to the boulder, except with the following occurrence added:
Occurrence: Character -- From Right
Affect: Destroy would-be destroyer? That wouldn't work if you didn't want it to kill them if they try to push if the other way. I guess, if you add an object to move the tile to the left or right, if possible, then that could work, but I'm not sure if it'd be best to implement the pushing of boulders in this way... Or maybe it'd work.

"a dynamite crate with spiked/poisonous/FLAMING edges so you are forced to hit it from the top"
So, destroy the destroyer on occurrences of a character from all but above?

"a steel crate that when falling turns into a bomb, which means that the landing animation will really be a dynamite explosion"
Actually, what this should be is a crate that, when it's destroyed, a bomb falls out, kinda like the dynamite launchers (also possible under this system) you suggested a while back, only the dynamite always goes down. I don't think what you suggested originally would work exactly as you described, since falling objects actually being projectiles was something that wasn't really discussed. I guess you -could-, but should?

So there's lots of things possible... But I'm not sure what you're talking about with some of that stuff...

Looks like everything would work except for the issue of recognizing tiles. We just may have to do the whole custom image idea, which would be cool if we didn't have to worry about people posting inappropriate stuff which means we'd have to approve everything. Another option would be to take an existing image and add effects to it, such as a hue shift or transparency, glow, or other Flash effects. But we could make some totally crazy levels with all this stuff-- completely breaking the bounds of HATPC. It almost feels like we're just letting people use the engine for their own projects....

one idea would be to force every custom tile to be a new "class", and then when you play a level, a list of all the class types will show up that you can reference to. And then while playing maybe roll-over the tile with the mouse and its class name comes up. click on it, and its properties come up? This forced-class system would help save code for the level, as well as discourage the over-use of the custom system in order to keep the level from getting so complicated (that is, if the author is smart enough to care). and we'd have to force people to not use any existing images for custom tiles or it'd get confusing, unless they are only minor changes (like the acceleration of an arrow or something). but I think I'm just rambling now...

lol I worded that ridiculously badly. I meant a crate that when it lands (or when its bottom hits the ground [or anything else]) then the crate would act like it was detonated like dynamite.

You'd basically have you use your own images. We'd have a report offensive material button, or maybe a system where you rate the appropriateness of the level, and then you get warned about it before you play it. There'd be an editor where you can mess around with some pixels, maybe import some images to a file, and then you could go into the tile's editor and select a square of pixels to use, and then add some information about it's animation and stuff like that (speed, number of frames). Like, in the tiles' graphics tabs or something.

"lol I worded that ridiculously badly. I meant a crate that when it lands (or when its bottom hits the ground [or anything else]) then the crate would act like it was detonated like dynamite."
That's not really possible, I don't think. I never really accounted for anything other than one object coming into contact with you. So your falling on an object... That's you coming into contact with them... Wait! OK, so if I add to every object an event where, if this particular object lands on it, though the landed-on object won't be destroyed (though it may be by the resulting explosion), an explosion is released? That'd accomplish the same affect.

I thinking you're expecting too much of this system? Falling objects? Killing the character by touch? Not things I really expected it'd be used for. I mean, of course there's a way you could work these things in (killing the character by touch, for example, you could release an invisible explosion that is only capable of killing characters -- but that's hacky), but I mostly intended it for what happens something comes into contact with you (assuming you're an object, lol). Clearly this idea is exactly refined -- I was still half working on it when this topic came up...

I'm going to stop talking about it for now, until I have a chance to take a better look at it.

Accel, could it be possible for you to create an "Aeon Discussions" sub-sub forum? I think it would help a great deal if we had seperate topics for discussing stuff like "crate classes", "arrow/missile properties" or what CSD is suggesting.

About the ideas proposed in this topic itself, it might be best to wait until we can test them out. The acceleration and gravity options sound too advanced to just reject or accept by theorizing.
I ACCEPT the bomb arrows, but I think we've had that suggested at least 5 times before.

No nuke crate then?