NOTE: There is a revised version of this plan at the top of page 3:
http://www.interguild.org/members/forums/topic.php?id=4141&page_number=3
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The level maker for the game will feature a lot of standard tiles, and then you'll get to choose the classes and subclasses for each tile gain access to different kinds of tiles. But everything will also be completely customizable. So far a list of customizable properties for tiles are as follows:

easy/simple customizations:
class - wooden, steel
modes - fragile, indestructible, water-floating, upward-falling

advanced customizations:
gravity direction - either up [which will be only for upward-falling-mode objects] or down
object weight - how fast the object falls in whichever direction it's falling
water flotation - does it fall up or down when in water?
in-water weight - how fast does it sink or float in water?
recoil - the amount of distance a tile pushes you back when you collide with it. Each side will have its own recoil properties, b/c objects with a top-recoil of zero let you stand on them.
tile image - you'd be able to alter the image of the tile, by either simply changing the color of an in-game tile image, or by uploading your own image (we'll moderate this, of course). I'm also wondering if I can make something where you can make your own image by matching different in-game images together. Because I imagine that we'd have one image for the simple wooden crate, and then when the game instantiates a wooden arrow, for example, it'd simply call up the wooden crate pic and slap on an arrow pic on it too. It'd save file size, and the level maker could take advantage of how this will be coded and let people mix as many of the games images as they'd like, and it'd save overall server space as well as be easy to moderate.
hit-test regions - I'm not sure if I'll let people change this, but the possibility exists, nonetheless. Maybe it's better suited for custom images.

Arrow-Specific Customizations:
Arrow speed - the speed of the arrows that are fired
Magnitude of Impact - the most simple ways of changing this is to specify if it's a bomb arrow or not. OR you can type in what the radius of its impact should be.
Custom Arrow Projectile - I just got this crazy idea right now, though. Make you own custom object that is fired out of an arrow. It'll let you pick or make the graphic and its hit regions.

Dynamite-Specific Customizations:
Scale of Explosions - how big the explosions are
Explosion graphic - how the explosion looks like. Like the other custom image options, you can either draw your own or change the colors of existing images.
Dynamite Launcher Options: (which will also include options mentioned above)
Gravity + Horizontal Speed - two options so that you can alter the path of the dynamite as it travels.
Custom Dynamite Projectile - like the custom arrow projectile mentioned above, but it has dynamite properties.

Water Taps and Drains:
Mainly the speed at which taps and drains do their work. Simple options will mainly include options for "High", "Medium", and "Low", but you can also take the time to insert your own numerical speed.
"Water Crust":
Thickness How think the crust is.
Strength What can destroy it?
Appearance options - such as if its a graphic, or a solid color, its opacity, etc.
Water Level:
initial water level height - Instead of placing it as a tile, the water level should be in the level properties. Then you can edit the water level (maybe by clicking and dragging a bar or something up and down) and even set precise water heights.
Foreground vs Background - if you want all water to be on its own plane, unaffected by terrain or other stuff.

Text Tiles And Message Crates - basically a background tile that will have text in it.
These will have all sorts of options, like font (basically the web-safe fonts and the one font included in the game [or two fonts, if I decide to put it in, as well]), size, color, align, the actual text, etc. It's basically a background tile.

THE PLAYER: (basically the character that the user controls when they play your level)
Run Speed - how fast the player moves
Jump Speed + Fall Speed + Jump-to-fall deceleration Change these to create different effects of weight, as well as to change the overall jump height of the character. Of course we may make separate presets of these since it does require a bit of testing to get these to work the way you want to.
Custom Characters - The ability to create your own custom character in the game. You can either import images that you have drawn and animated in other programs, or use existing images with color changes and stuff.
Hit Regions The parts of the character that respond to collision detection, mainly good for custom characters. Will have separate regions for crawling.
Option: Wall jumping - if your character can wall jump (should be useful for characters with low jump heights)
Option: Edge Grabbing - if your character should edge grab (again, should be useful for characters with low jump heights)

END OF THE LIST

Wow that's a lot of stuff. The biggest issue would be how to make the level codes. But I've decided that the best way to code it would be to make every custom tile (anything that isn't a simple mix/match of classes and modes/subclasses) be saved as a custom tile, which will then have one reference in the code, and it'll help further save file size, especially if you use a single custom tile a lot.

NEW IDEA: Custom Objects Database?
With so many options, we will inevitably want to share our stuff for other people to use. For example, what if you made steel crate with its recoil value set to a ridiculous value, thus enabling you to have made a teleporter! (b/c the recoils won't be animated, it just sets you to the distance set by the recoil) And then suddenly everyone uses this idea, so you design your own tile face and everything, and then upload it to the site's custom objects database, where they can then be imported directly to the level maker.  

But of course, you will not be forced to upload your custom tiles into the database, but if you uploaded a custom pic to the site, then that will be forced into the database. But the database would mostly hold custom-images and stuff, since that's where most of the creativity would be in.

So yeah, this is one super crazy huge post. but that is why it is in the discussion board...

I don't know about some of those. I think that jump height, arrow speed, crate recoil and whatnot should be a set, constant value throughout the whole game. Otherwise, I think it'd be pretty disorienting whenever you switch levels.

But being able to change the colour of tiles or put in custom tiles and cosmetic things like that would be great.

I think anything that has to do with speed should be the same as hatpc. and:



that's what floating crates are for.

exactly, but that's a literal definition of that feature.

It all depends on how we set up the level maker. The idea is that it'll all be set to all the simple stuff, mainly classes and modes (subclasses). Then there'd be a button or something like "Advanced Options" where you could set all the different options available to the currently selected object.

yeah I mostly threw out a bunch of random ideas out there for the sake of discussion. But realize that all of these options will be very easy to implement because of how the game is being coded, and I think the more options we give people, the more they can mess around with the engine of the game and the more interesting things they can make.

For example, when jell suggested that fragile be made a mode, and not a class, I realized that we could make that old Barrier Tile idea by combining the steel and fragile classes together. This is a great example, of how we can make a customization system that can actually produce useful ideas that may not have been accepted or suggested during the creation of the game. Even Quirvy said that what makes HATPC fun is the its glitches; or the fact that we can manipulate it so much. That's why I think a strong customization system could make the game even better.

And as I said, the biggest worry is how to make it user friendly. People should be able to automatically infer what the "standard" tiles do based on their appearance. And then for custom tiles, maybe make a list show up when you play the level, describing each tile and what its properties are. And then make that list accessible through both the level start screen and the pause screen.

As for the level maker, I'm hoping to keep things simple by hiding all the complicated options unless you decide that you want to change them. I'm thinking that the layout of the level maker should have a properties panel somewhere (probably at the bottom of the screen) and it'll have multiple tabs in it: one for the props of the currently selected tiles, one for the level properties and file stuff, another for setting water properties, if we're still doing that secret door idea, that'll need another tab. Then the level maker will also have that right column of tiles, but these tiles will also have tabs: one for wooden crates, another for steel crates, another for other tiles, another for custom tiles which will also include links to a custom tile manager to help you browse through the database. I'm guessing that these "tabs" would run vertically along the side of the column, since there wouldn't be much room at the top. And of course there would be plenty of keyboard shortcuts to make using the whole thing easier.

While I would like some of these, I feel like many of them are practically worthless, and most notably, they will make the game extremely confusing. For example, you know HatPC fake crates and that you almost never can be sure if a crate is fake or not until you've looked at the code, right? We need to find ways to make sure that there's no guessing if this or that crate will send you back fifteen squares if you touch it, or if it will fly upwards, or if it is indestructible...this means that many of these options would have to go away unless you do a very unique and easy-to-understand UI during the playing. Now imagine a first time player randomly playing a level, trying to learn stuff, and he ends up in a level filled with random tiles with different settings. That player won't enjoy it.

{REJECT

Why so difficult? Not only will it be confusing for a level maker to set all these parameters, it won't be fun for a player either when they can't judge how fast a crate will fall without actually making it fall first. I see a whole lot of confusion and frustration with all these advanced costumisations. As far as I'm concerned it should be like this:

-Category
Breakable, Unbreakable or Object. Can only pick one. Breakable and Unbreakable will all have the same crate as graphic, with Object the graphic will vary on each type.
-Type
Missile, Grenade Launcher, Bomb, Vanilla, etc in the case of Breakable/Unbreakable. Can only pick one. The graphic will be pasted over the category and mode image.
Power Box, Platform, Spikes, etc. in the case of Object. Can only pick one. The graphic will be unique for each type.
-Mode
Fragile, Static, Floating, etc. Can pick as many as you want. The graphic for Breakable/Unbreakable will be posted over the category image, but under the type image. Within the mode, there will be an order of dominanty which graphic will get pasted over which. The graphic will vary per mode for Breakable/Unbreakable, but will vary per type for Object.

But no type or mode should have specific costumizable options.

If this is too complicated, I could provide you with examples.

All of these, I {MEGA REJECT!

already mentioned that. There would be a list of all the custom tiles so that you know what they do. It would be accessible on the "jump to start" page as well as the pause screen. And we can force people to change the appearance of a tile if it has custom properties to it.

already addressed this too. The level maker program will be set up as if the advanced options didn't even exist. If you want to change any of these crazy options, you can just click on an "Advanced Properties" button, which would open up a little window (not really a new window, but you know what I mean) that'll have that objects' eligible advanced properties.

As for why there seem to be a lot of potentially useless options suggested, it's simply because we can. Lol, and they're quite easy to implement because it's taking advantage of how the game is coded. I think that the more options we let people change, the more things they'll be able to come up with, so if it'll be easy to add, then why not?

What will make or break all of this is basically the way we present all of this. As long as we get that right, then there's no harm in so many options

you know, if the custom tiles database idea was to work best, (and not be just a collection of custom art), then we would have to probably include more advanced options for tiles. Or we could just focus on providing a custom-art database with the added ability to store some properties with that tile....

but if you really want to go overboard ( ) then we could add advanced options for moving tiles, then moving tiles that push other tiles, and other crazy stuff.

No.  Too far.

lol I know, but I'm just spitting out ideas....

"Weight" is the incorrect term for it's function. "Falling Speed" or "Air Resistance Factor" (the former would mean higher numbers would result in slower speeds, so "Falling Speed" is probably best). Livio, weight does NOT affect what speed objects fall. Weight could have it's own use, though, to determine whether an object is heavy enough to destroy an object by landing on it, if objects also have a "sturdiness" factor... or something.

"I realized that we could make that old Barrier Tile idea by combining the steel and fragile classes together." That'd be indestructible and fragile.


I've said this before, but, when you used custom objects, you would hopefully not use very many, and the few that you do use would be completely obvious or somehow explained to the player (either in-game or through a description). If you were making a full-on game, instead of just one level, you could take time to explain all the features and introduce them over the course of the first few levels. I don't believe that players will be confused, and if they are, then that's the fault of the level maker (we've been through this) for overusing the customizations or not explaining them properly.

"Confusion" on the behalf of the players shouldn't be a problem, if customizations are used properly. Were you terribly confused when you played through HATPC the first time? The speed of the jumping and the falling objects were disorienting? The level makers could be confused, I guess, but I think you're underestimating us. Even still, the idea is to make the level editor in such a way that it presents you with the game set up in such a way that you'll be making just another Aeon level, with the tiles we used being the ones presented, and the options that are the easiest to find and set being the ones that are used most often within the campaign.

And one of the ideas behind allowing all this customization is so that players can combine together valid gameplay mechanics in ways that the creators (us), perhaps, never thought of. A good example of this, I think, is how there are no metal arrow crates in HATPC. They'd be entirely useful and the mechanics to produce them exist, but, for whatever reason, the creators of HATPC didn't include them, and, since there's no custom objects whatsoever, we can't create them ourselves. It's because HATPC is not like this that we're creating Aeon.

The question is whether this is what we want or not. As it stands right now, I don't think we have a clear, collective idea of what we want out of our game. Do we want almost limitless possibilities, or do we just want the same ones that we can already get from HATPC, plus a few fixes and new mechanics that we'll probably bore of in a few years, the same way we eventually bored of HATPC? Do we want the game to, perhaps, take longer to complete and potentially be a lot more confusing, or do we want a more-easily understood game that can be completed sooner?

I knew that. lol this must be the third time someone told me that, but I keep calling it weight for some reason...

yes that makes more sense.

lol

I think that whenever you design anything, it's your job to underestimate everyone. That way you strive for the best possible design.exactly my point

yeah, this exactly too. I'm not sure if I even mentioned this yet, though, b/c I had written a totally crazy analogy about it, only to delete it b/c it made no sense. your example was much better though. But I've also realized that we're going to have to create some more customization options if we really want this concept to work best. I got the idea of making an enemy that doesn't kill you, pushes objects around, and can be stood on top of. So it basically that would create a moving tile Then put a bunch of these "moving tiles" to create a moving wall

Actually, now that I think of it, the custom tile feature would have to be much more intuitive than what we're currently planning. Instead of copying objects, and then customizing their properties (we should have this, but this shouldn't be the main way to crate a custom tile), what if we had an "Aeon Object Maker". You'd first choose the major action of the object, such as if it's a regular crate, a crate that launches a projectile (or multiple projectiles) in certain directions (straight or curved), a crate that moves set to a path or to some AI (an enemy OR mixed with other stuff, a moving crate ), etc. It's much more intuitive and it should include something that lets you start working off of an in-game tile. This would make things much more intuitive, at least, and make things much more flexible, so that we have a better chance of people making tiles that might actually be useful.

And with the Custom Object Database, some custom tiles may be used so often that it becomes easily recognizable by the average member.

I do. And I'm the one coding this game, which means that I think such a thing is possible to code and that it wouldn't be a pain to code either. Also, we better make this decision now b/c some of these changes will affect the core coding of the game.

I'm actually not opposed to this idea too much since some people probably think that the custom tile may be a flop of an idea, and they just want to see Aeon released already. But yeah, you have a point that we may become bored with it. I actually assumed that like all things I've worked on in the past, that we may decide to add some things to it over time. Maybe another idea for a tile, or a new unforeseen feature that, I dunno, lets you create animated backgrounds or something. But I definitely like the idea of making the game more open. It'll be much more successful if users contribute to the content in the game-- not just the levels, but the actual content. But like I said for such a thing to work, it'll have to be much more flexible than what we're currently thinking (hence my proposal for an intuitive Custom Object Maker).

i really think the Custom Object Maker would be a great addition to the Level Maker, and it would be it's own thing, so it wouldn't interfere with the ease-of-use of the the normal Level Maker and the way newcomers are introduced to Aeon.

But if we're going to add it, like I said, we'll have to decide now so that I can code the core of the game's engine to work with the possibilities of several options. For example, right now I'm running collision tests based off of object classes, and that's really limiting if we ever plan on adding more customizable tiles.

I agree with the rejections. I would never play this game.

Oh, well if it's limited to custom tiles, I wouldn't mind it. I just don't think it'd be good to be able to set the different characteristics of specific individual vanilla tiles in the level. But the ability to make custom tiles and set their properties there would be great.

I am utterly confused by the logic behind this post. You probably didn't read much of this topic.

this post is a perfect example of how presentation can make or break this game. If we force every non-normal change to be under the domain of custom tiles, then everything suddenly makes sense again....

so I've mentioned a few times now that to make the custom tile feature a true feature, we'd have to add a ton of options to the tiles. Like I said, every object (except for the player/character) is an instance of a giant class called "Tile". Whenever a new tile is instantiated, certain variables of that Tile instance are set. It is the combining of these variables that tell the game what to do with that object for certain situations. So in other words, we can easily mix all of the properties of all of the objects and tiles that we currently have planned right now.

If enemies can move set to a path, then you should be able to set a steel crate to move set to a path too. It'll be easy for the person making the level, and it'll be super easy to code, b/c the code will already be there. If certain tiles are in the background, then you should be able to make any tile as something in the background, too. there are tons of more options that I didn't even think of yet, that will probably be added to the custom tile maker by the time we're done.

I'm thinking that the basic set up of the custom tile maker, should be built around creating a blank object (or importing an existing object that is either in-game, or another custom object, to base your work on), and then you'll add different functions and properties to the tiles. You won't be forced to pick the "tile type" right away; it'll be more intuitive, and you can mix around more things and see how the game reacts to it.

For example, you could create an indestructible fragile wooden arrow that moves along an enemy path, floats in water, fires an arrow that is affected by gravity, and has an impact explosion of 3 tiles, and it lets you stand on top of it, so that you're constantly firing these crazy 3-tile-range bomb arrows as your the tile moves around on the surface of rising water. And all the while, the tile has art that was drawn by the person who made the tile. 0_o That's pretty crazy.

actually the projectiles will be based off of the Tile class too. Does this mean that we can make an arrow crate that SHOOTS FLAMING BOULDERS AT YOU???? now that is crazy

but that also means that you'd be able to make tiles such as a flying arrow, so that when you begin the level, that arrow (or any other projectile) is already in flight.

OOOOOOKKKKKKK??????????? You've officially gone bananas.

lol or what if it instead shot out FLAMMING BOLDERS at you?

When I saw your post, I thought you were going to suggest that it shoots bananas at you.... but you're in luck b/c under my system, it'd be possible  

so besides CSD's observation, I wonder if anyone cares about this, or if the giant posts scared them off. I really like this crazy idea of mixing anything and everything that can possibly be done with the tiles. Aeon is much more epic in my mind all of a sudden....

I agree!

Are you suggesting a boulder generator that shoots the boulder into the air? Because, you know, that would be pretty cool - a crate that when touched/triggered fires/turns into a boulder, a water crate, an arrow...Would be extra cool if fired in the same way arrows are, except that they're influenced by gravity and when touching anything, they fall to the ground. It would make for some awesome traps.

Every post I read, makes me want to REJECT it more.
And if the graphics are costumisable, what is the point in making these advanced graphics? I could just make a simple stick figure with simple crates, because the point will be to change these anyway.

I have to agree with Jell.  Every time someone posts, it just makes it more complicated and confusing.  We don't need an overly complicated game.  If anything, we should take out all those options, test the game, and if we feel the game could be better, or needs more, then we could add it.