Lol that'd be really cool.

I think we have already got enough options and like Isa said it will be too confusing unless we have a really good set of tutorials which at this rate may take 100 tutorials which no one would want to play. The other thing is that there isn't enough consistancy between tiles if we have each tile as a combination af atributes, the class idea works better because as it is with these options:

"Hello, welcome to Aeon. In this game pretty much anything can happen. Some crates fall upwards and some fall down, some tiles fall down and some don't, some things that look almost exactly the same as other ones kill you when before they didn't. Look out for all of the different colourings of crates and remember:

Yellow tint: Static crate
Red tint: Kills you
Blue tint: floats
Pink tint: falls upwards
Crack on crate: Fragile crate
........................................................."

The rules are so complicated even with a simple class system that I don't see how combining classes and making anything possible will be able to be remembered by even the most active members.

come on, at least say why.

You mean that if we have the ability to upload images, there's no need to even include options to put some effects on in-game images, or mix them together? Because not everyone knows how to draw on with a computer, let alone draw well. Customizing in-game images would be way more convenient.

as for the problem of making things too complicated: It all depends on how we present it.

We don't have to introduce everything all at once. As long as we introduce things simply, then it'll work alright. All they have to know is that they can hit wooden crates, can't hit steel crates, know what dynamite and arrow crates are and boulders, and that's it. Then another tutorial can introduce the idea that there are "modes" that separate tiles can be in, but it won't go into them in depth, maybe an example of each. Then another tutorial or two about water. And that's it! And then maybe if we want, make a tutorial introducing the idea of custom tiles and custom characters, but this will mainly be so that people can be introduced into the whole user-level stuff. But to waste time, explaining everything in significant detail-- that's what would lead to 100 tutorials. But here I came up with a list of only about five tutorials. Everything else would be mostly self-explanatory. And when you reach a part of the main game that'll focus on some of the more obscure or complicated tiles, then it would probably explain them again but to some better detail.

I just found out that Isa has been seen logged into Acceleron_3000. If this is isa, and not quirvy, whom I assumed initially, then: yes! another supporter!

I should've known better. Quirvy hardly contributes to these discussions....


btw, I'm thinking I should make some sort of update to the current plan, in case it was lost in all these giant posts.

the following post is very important to the organizational user friendliness of this discussion and should not be deleted for any malign purposes. Thank you.

basically, this post is here so that a very important update can begin at the top of the next page.

THE PLAN FOR CUSTOM OBJECTS -- UPDATED, SIMPLIFIED, AND REVISED
Or, 9 reasons why this is a good idea


1) No change will be done to the original set-up or user friendliness of the current tile system. The current tile system will probably be a simple-as-possible selection of tiles from different lists based on class (now that we only have two major crate classes: wooden and steel) and other categories for other tiles. Then you can apply different modes to tiles, such as fragile, indestructible/reusable, etc. There will be no other complex options to pick from, or to change.

2) BUT, a new feature will be added to the level editor: a Custom Object Editor. This feature will let you create custom tiles of your own ().

3) The custom object editor will take advantage of the way the game is coded and basically allow you to mix and match any properties and any functions of any tile, into a new tile that you have designed. This also means that the only real work that I'll have to do to set up such a system would be the actual designing of the custom object editor, because the code that custom objects will run on is already there.

To explain it better: basically, mostly everything in Aeon will be an instance of the same class, and each of them will have the same access to the same properties and functions as other tiles, so to mix and match such properties, programming-wise, would be as simple as turning them on.

4) Custom Objects will have a strong appearance-customization feature. You can upload your own pictures, not just for custom tiles, but for backgrounds, terrain, background objects, enemies, and characters. I know that not everyone knows how to draw a decent picture on the computer, so I'll also add a simple feature that lets you customize the in-game images based on color tints, opacity, and other such easy-to-add effects.

But I may also let you mix together several in-game images too. Most of the game's tiles' faces will be created in a way that mixes together commonly-used images, in order to save file size, so it would be quite easy to let the user mix and match these images as well. I don't think it's over the top at all; many people would see this as very convenient.

5) I'm hoping to make the custom object editor be intuitive enough that you could actually make tons of really creative things with it. You can make anything out of the Custom Object editor: crates, enemies, characters, designs for terrain or backgrounds, or doors or background objects. And because of the way the game is coded, any properties or functions available to any of these objects (except for characters; they are their own thing) will be accessible to ANY custom tile, no matter what it is. For example, enemies move along a set path. What if you wanted moving crates, but they got rejected? Make a custom object! b/c you can combine enemy movement paths with crates. Or what if you wanted objects to fall at different speeds? Or an arrow crate that shoots out arrows in 8 different directions? Or a bomb with a blast range of a 3-tile radius, instead of just 1? Or an arrow that fires at approximately 30 degrees North of West (top-right)?

And the cool thing is that projectiles fired from objects can be created in the Custom Object Editor, too!! Not only will you be able to create some crazy projectiles, but you can also fire regular tiles as projectiles. I have officially declared that my best idea for Aeon has so far been "an arrow crate that shoots FLAMING BOULDERS at you". Isa (as Acceleron_3000) really liked how flexible this system was to create such an interesting possibility.

6) Like I said, you'll also be able to create custom characters. (remember! the person making the level chooses the character, not the person playing it) We're thinking of adding interesting features such as wall jumping and edge-grabbing, which I think would work best for characters that are small and fast. But I imagine that the custom characters will be mainly used for the sole purpose of uploading your own artwork, so that you can make a level where you play as Pikachu or something.

7) The Aeon Custom Object Database will be the staple of all of this. I want to make this system with enough freedom to fill such a database with tons of good ideas. You will not be forced to enter your custom tiles into the database, unless you create or upload a custom image. Plus, adding it to the database, will save you some level code, so you won't reach your KB limit as fast. And it's a good way for you to use the same custom tiles in series, as well as let other people use it. It also helps mods moderate this system since they can delete certain custom objects without having to delete the entire level.

8) Why go through all this trouble? Because as CSD said (paraphrased), it'll increase creativity and prolong the life of this game. It's not a radical change, it's merely a new option that takes advantage of how this game is being coded. And it'll let you potentially use ideas and tiles that we may not have approved or thought of.

9) How will people not be confused by what the heck is going on in the game? I propose that each custom tile be given a description of some sort by the user. And then when you play that person's level, on the jump-to-start page, a list of custom tiles will be accessible. You can also access this very same list on the pause screen in case you forget. And as CSD argues, it'll be the responsibility of the creator of the level to ensure that people who play it are not confused.

You threw my name around a lot in that post (OK twice). Who gave you the rights to my likeness? I'm still a little divided myself as to whether this is the way to go. But, a first, you've managed to describe something clearly! Hopefully now people will be able to make a more informed decision.

Still reject. I just don't like such a degree of costumisability. The point in HatPC was having little options and squeezing all you could out of them. With unlimited options, there is no need for creative designs at all.

"The point in HatPC was having little options and squeezing all you could out of them."
Done. OK, now what?

"With unlimited options, there is no need for creative designs at all."
That doesn't sound right... With more options, there's more things that you can use to be creative? I'm an artist painting a picture, and you mean to tell me that, since there's so many colours... I just forgot where I was going with this analogy.

woot! lol and I wasn't even sure if that was all that clear....

I think what jell is saying that the scarcity of things you can do will lead people to be more creative. But if you can do anything, then suddenly it becomes easier to do certain things, and there's not much creativity.

But then again, if you give people more things to do, that could also raise creativity back up, if done right. So doesn't the problem cancel itself out? And besides, we can always hold competitions or something where no custom objects are allowed. Or just keep playing HATPC.

If you give a painter an unlimited amount of colours, he can just pick any colour he wants. But if you only give him red, blue, yellow, black and white, he has to combine those colours to what he wants. It is more difficult, but in the end it will appear much more interesting and creative. Also note that he is still able to combine those colours into most of the colours he could need. It is just more difficult.

And we don't want stuff to be difficult when creating a level. Not because of too many options, not because of a bad UI, not because of too few options. We want it to be easy.

yeah Isa has a point.

I'm actually trying to find ways to fix any potential problems that may result from certain ideas, so that we can at least see how much of a chance an idea has without automatically passing over it.

to continue the painter analogy, every artist has access to all the colors, but some of the best works were where they limited themselves to use certain colors. Not because the world around them forced them to. Thus it's even more creative. And the system is still open enough to bring more kinds of creativity in

so what are we doing with this? should we vote on it? doesn't look like too many people are caring what we do here.

I'd just like to point out that this is just a new feature, and it won't change anything else

EPIC APPROVE

REJECT

hm, I'm not so sure
I mean, if somebody drew their own character/arrows/bombs/enemies/whatever, they would have to draw all of the animation frames as well. Since most people (I'm pretty sure most people) couldn't draw all that very well, we would be stuck with low quality levels with terribly ugly sprites.

So NO on the idea of appearance  change. YES on the idea of color changing the sprites given, though.

So as level designers, we're completely incompetent? It's just that "incompetent level designers" seems to be the main argument against everything these days. The people who can draw, draw, and the people who can't, import.

Hmm, I really haven't said anything, but I'm going with NEUTRAL. Lots of options and few options have pros and cons. All leave this up to the titans of the Interguild to decide.

lol yeah I was wondering the same thing...

you know, we're not going to force this option upon the players. But the option is still there for those who want it. so everyone wins.

Actually, that's been my main argument for this whole custom object system. Leave the option there for those who want it, as long as it doesn't disrupt, confuse, or disorient those who don't want it. And I think we have a design that accomplishes that.

EPIC NEUTRAL

Yes, nobody HAS to do it, but lots of people are going to want to, even if they know they can't draw. I just think that bad drawings/design would ruin the level.

lol then it's their fault for ruining their own level

I still think we should release the costum objects level maker as a seperate game. I just don't like it if in Aeon, all the discussion we put in what crates should and shouldn't be put in, or all the effort I've put in the graphics won't mean much anymore when people will just create their own objects. But if it is a seperate game with the focus on costum objects, I won't care as much.

I still don't see the logic behind that, but whatever.

EPIC ACCEPT especially if there was a way to filter out levels with custom objects. Those that don't like custom objects can just filter them out.