Bonus humorous picture:

im all for a reset as well, though i cant even get one o_o

edit: im slow, fixed it

That smiley looks like your avatar

So I have a few thoughts to add:

1. Difficulty:
Having died without being able to recover my inventory twice in the last 2 days (1 was a very big loss, the other wasn't as bad), I still don't like the idea of switching to hard mode. Granted one of the deaths could have been avoided if I was quick-thinking enough (although I was still in a pretty difficult situation, so I'm not sure I would have made it out anyways), but losing as much valuables as I did in one go is pretty frustrating and demoralizing, and is not something we should want to happen more often. Particularly because of the demoralizing factor, like how when Isa lost all of his valuables after falling into lava, he stopped playing on the server for like a year. Given my experience on my caving adventure (which I still almost came out alive from), if we switch to hard mode, I probably won't ever go exploring caves on my own because I know that it's too dangerous and that I'd likely end up dead. Which is I guess in a way why kroto wants us to do it, because he wants us to be more reliant on each other, like exploring caves together, and while I agree that we want to increase the amount of collaboration, we shouldn't be forcing it on people. And furthermore, what if no one wants to go cave exploring with me, or no one is on? Then the willingness and presence of others to work with you could end up directly affecting your ability to do things that you want.

If more people really want to play on hard than normal, then I guess that's what we'll be going with, but I personally would prefer we not, as I just think it might detract from the experience of some players.



2. The Admin Shop:
a. I don't think we should get rid of it entirely. I can understand if you want to get rid of diamonds, gold, iron, ect, but I still think that it would be good to keep some things like cobblestone, sand, clay, dirt, ect, so that people who want to build things don't end up stripping the ground and making ugly looking areas like this:



With that said:
b. I think that we definitely need to get rid of money as a reward for killing monsters. Instead all money should be gained through trading resources. Right now the problem is that people can be like:
"Hey, I'll just go to the enderfarm, get tons of money, and use it to buy diamonds without having to put forth any effort"

Even if we get rid of the admin shop, there still exists a problem. Like lets say people start making nice shops and everything, and then CSD (pretend like he has minecraft and plays on our server), bent on exploiting all of the flaws of our system, goes to the skeleton farm, and just sits there while watching TV, and killing all the skeletons during commercial breaks, and eventually collects enough money to buy everything from every shop on the server, effectively gaining control of the entire economy. Even besides this extreme scenario, giving money as rewards for killing monsters effectively means that money has no actual value in relative to resources. It doesn't make sense to say, "I'll give you a diamond if you kill 200 zombies." Why would I give you resources for killing zombies? I don't care how many zombies you killed. I know that I can spend that money on resources, too, but the money should originate from resources, not something irrelevant like mob kills.

Now, if we don't have an admin shop then that's kind of problematic, because then where are we going to get any money at all from? I guess we could have everyone start out with 200$ or something, but then there are also a lot of flaws with that, too.

Personally, I think the best thing to do would be to maybe adjust the prices of the admin shop a little bit, and make it so that you can only get money from selling goods rather than killing monsters. You guys seem to think that the problem is that you can get as many diamonds as you want from the admin shop, but I think the problem is instead that you can get as much money as want from mob farms. Take away the money from monsters and suddenly people can't go crazy and buy as many diamonds as they please. I mean sure, you can still farm trees and sell wood to theoretically get as much money as you want (and personally I don't think we need to prevent people from being able to do so, because...), but that's much more tedious, time consuming, and less efficient than fighting mobs around spawn, going to the enderfarm, or occasionally tending to the skeleton farm while doing some other activity.

I feel the admin shop is silly because you should get diamond by mining diamond, not through other means. I don't like the economy plugin at all and wasn't happy (or around at all, to be fair) when it was implemented. With that said, I'm probably happy as long as I can keep on mining my mines.

I don't have a particular opinion on the difficulty level.  

I don't encourage the admin shop at all. I think adjusting the prices won't help in any way because even though it's more expensive, there still is a way to obtain diamonds, saddles, name tags, and things in a different way that mining it or finding it in a dungeon or a temple.

The creators of this game didn't make those things obtainable only by those ways without any purpose - if they would want us to have infinite saddles, name tags and things then they wouldn't place them only in spawner areas. The same with diamonds and all the other precious minerals - they wouldn't be as precious as they used to be if they would be so easy to get. All in all, the rewards for killing monsters should totally be removed as well. It has no sense and the experience obtained by killing them is enough.

The building materials are supposed to be found in different ways than buying them for money in the admin shop too, hence the survival mode. If you want to build with ready materials then go and visit the creative world. It will additionally allow me to fly to make the building easier, huh! Quirvy, you were also surprised that I built a block of flats out of boredom opposites the Hotel lately with a full help of admin shop - no materials found on my own by mining, so you said I could just go to creative and make it there. This shows the admin shop makes building things way too easy. I competely have no idea who could make that area look so strangely, but if we all just visit caves and find materials there then all the problems related to "breaking" particular areas just to have some materials will fully disappear. (I didn't even know there's some easier way for obtaining cobblestone like this, lol)

As for the difficulty level, (this might be somehow a personal opinion) come on! The hard difficulty level isn't as different than the normal one as you might think. What are you going to do after you've built lots of things and you have lots of items in your arsenals? The hard mode will make it a bit more challenging for you and you'll have more fun achieving the goals in the hard mode since it gave you harder obstacles to pass and you've done it well.

I'm currently playing in a hardcore mode for a few days and I've mined a few diamond ores already in a huge cave system. (and since it's a hardcore mode, then no deaths allowed) A lot of fun guaranteed! However, there should be a poll about it in this thread and the decision should be comfortable for all the players of the Interserver, and those were just my thoughts.

If we don't want to make diamonds and other resources too easy to get, how about we make it so that all you can do at the admin shops is sell stuff? That way, you could make money by selling your resources at the shops. However, there would still be a reason to make your own shops, as it's not possible to buy items at the admin shops. You could sell items outside the admin shops for a higher price than what you'd make selling them at the admin shop. So you could sell a diamond for $50 at the admin shop, but also sell a diamond for $100 at your own shop, and since you can't buy diamonds at the admin shop, if someone wants to buy a diamond, they'll have to go to yours.

Someone on the Interserver has considered this idea too, and it's worth thinking if we should add it to the new world. It would encourage making our own shops too, but then again; I wouldn't have anything to do with the money if I'd collect a lot of it with the help of my shop and my shop is the only one on the server or all the shops sell the same resources. Since money has been added to the server, it needs to have some value too, but definitely not by allowing us to buy things in the admin shop anymore.

I think most of us are more interested in playing a less modded survival rather than survival being a watered-down version of creative. I feel if we did Kro's idea where the admin shop only bought your items, rather than selling you items, people won't really want to turn their items into money since there will either be no shops, or the shops users make won't have what the users want. I have doubts people would actually make shops. If you look at it right now, the only shops I can see were made by two admins and probably to try and encourage others to make shops. Before the economy was added, I think survival was more or less vanilla with the only things I can think of preventing it from being vanilla were blocked creeper explosions, blocked tnt, etc. Blocking those things was probably agreed on by players when survival first started. Those modifications to the game don't change it much but the economy, from what I remember, was added without any sort of official poll and it had a big effect on our survival world being a near-vanilla game or survival being a watered-down creative world and that's what it has turned into.

Also three less economy plugins = better server performance.

With that said, I was considering an economy with just user shops before but now I'm all for complete abolition of the economy in the survival reset. I don't mind if people have to remove sand from the desert or take lily pads from the swamp. As long as it's not near spawn or anybody's build, it's fine; it's part of the game.

Teo, you seem to have entirely missed the point that I made about the economy. I almost feel like you didn't even read my entire post, like you just saw that I encouraged keeping the admin shop and decided to chime in.

1. I'm not suggesting we "adjust the prices", I'm suggesting we get rid of rewards from killing monsters (if we were to do this before the server reset, we would also need to reset everyone's money balance) (although I do think that the prices should probably be changed, too)

By removing rewards from killing monsters, it is no longer "too easy to get" things from the admin shop because you can't just make money from thin air like you currently can. The reason why the admin shop is so terribly flawed right now isn't because you can buy as many things from there as you want, it's because you can get as much money as you want without putting forth any effort (and also just because you can accumulate a lot of money over time without even making an effort to, just through all the monsters you kill).

2. If we were to do it the way I suggested, you WOULD have to find materials on your own, because that's how you would acquire money to begin with. Either that, or you would have to sacrifice materials that you've already acquired. THAT'S THE WAY MY SUGGESTED ALTERATIONS TO THE ECONOMY WOULD WORK. Am I wrong? Explain to me, how are you going to effortlessly acquire all of the money to build things like that, when you no longer get it from killing monsters?

3. Just because the game developers designed the game one way, doesn't mean that we have to abide by it. In our server's current version, baby zombies don't burn in sunlight, don't drop any items and don't drop any experience. Yeah, it's the way that they designed it, but I don't care, if I could I would change all of those things. Additionally, they didn't build world-edit into creative mode. There must be a reason for that, right? And we should get rid of it. They made mobs be able to affect the environment for a reason, we should turn that back on, that way some one can accidentally blow a hole in the side of the Hotel.

Making saddles rare makes it really hard to own horses, and making nametags rare makes it harder to distinguish horses. But is that something that we really want? Should members who weren't around when we started out the server (that might be me) not be able to own horses because everyone went out and found most of the saddles and name tags already? Should they be forced to go to the edge of the world to search for places (dungeons, mines, ect) containing name tags and saddles? (have fun doing that without a horse, by the way)

(Note, though, that they apparently made it so that you can now get saddles and nametags through fishing)



And I do find it surprising that you did that; It seems strange to me that someone so opposed to the admin shop, because it can make things too easy to do, would actually go out and use it to make building something effortless. It's like you did it just to be like, "see, I did this and it's wrong, now keep me from doing it again"

The person why did that was the guy who built the pyramid. The only way to acquire sand as far as I know is to pick it up off of the ground. Needing so much, he had to strip that area of the desert. You can't "mine" for sand. And that's why I suggest we still keep some things. If I need to make windows for my house, The Hotel, or some other project that might require sand, I don't want to have to deface the nearest desert to get it. (Same thing goes for hardened clay that would be otherwise acquired by defacing mesa biomes, and even just having to dig up a bunch of dirt in a general area)


Note that I'm simply explaining how I think we should go about fixing the economy. If we want to get rid of it entirely, then that's fine I guess (although I really don't want to have to deface areas for sand), but I think that if we want to keep it and try to fix it, that's how we should do it. I think that with these changes, this wouldn't be the "watered-down version of creative." We could try changing the economy before the server reset and see how that works out, and then make the decision. But as it stands, the current economy definitely needs to either change, or go entirely.

Wait, did I misinterpret this or do you want to remove World Edit from the server? If you're talking about the Survival world, that's fine, no World Edit should ever be used on Survival. However, on Different, removing World Edit is a really bad idea; think of how much stuff we've made on Different through the use of World Edit! Sure, some people may misuse it now and then, and so far there haven't been any bad results, there's no need to remove World Edit entirely. It's an asset to the server, without it I doubt we could have made half the things we have today.

I believe quirvy is saying everyone should receive WE (which i dont necessarily agree with)

I believe Quirvy has just got a bit upset (or excited xd) and that was an irony, lol.

Let's say you have just quickly found some iron and you decided to sell it in the admin shop. Now let's say you have enough money to buy two stacks of oak tree logs, so it equals eight stacks of oak wood which is definitely enough to build a decent building, and mining out that few iron ores definitely didn't take as much as you would have to take in order to acquire 128 oak logs. (plus the tools used to obtain it) Of course that's just a makeshift example of a situation that's possible to happen. If we manage to adjust the admin shop the way everything has prices in proper proportions together with the other prices, then I'm fine with it.

Do you visit that stripped area every day or something? I personally don't mind this area being out of sand, I even didn't notice it even though I have passed that pyramid few times, and I didn't hear anyone saying anything about this area before. Lots of servers have no economy at all and they aren't despairing just because of some little stripped areas they might own if someone decided to build a pyramid... It's nice if you're taking care of the server and control if such areas aren't happening, but even if the admin shop exists and someone will happen to be at a desert and decides to build a pyramid, unlucky being without any money, then he would probably quickly take some sand and then build it instead of going back to e.g. mines to find something worth enough money to go back to the shop and then buy some sand to go back to the desert and *finally* build the planned project.

I don't think we actually want to entirely get rid of the economy, but it's a nice idea to try out the new economic settings at the current survival world before changing to the new one IMO.

i support. interpret this post however makes you happy

I think in the new server, since Quirvy said that, we should find a designated dry biome region and only use the deserts and mesas in that area for sand/hardened clay so that ones near spawn aren't defaced.

You (both) misinterpret, I'm being sarcastic when I'm saying we should remove these things. I used them as examples of things that aren't in the normal version minecraft that we've added to enhance our experience. Basically I'm just saying that it's silly to say that we shouldn't do things just because it's not the way the game was originally designed.

That's because your arguments were:
1. Worded in a way that will generally incite a reaction.
2. Didn't seem to follow from what I had argued in my post

I don't know what your intentions were, but "If you want to build with ready materials then go and visit the creative world. It will additionally allow me to fly to make the building easier, huh!" comes off as you mocking me. If you had a valid point, then I just have to deal with it, but most of the points you made weren't valid relative to what I had just said. Especially what I just quoted; I'm not the one who's making buildings entirely from admin shop materials; that's you. When I made the hotel, not one piece of wood, wool or stone was bought from the admin shop.

As far as what you were talking about earlier (being able to acquire materials too easily and make buildings without having to put forth effort), keeping the economy wouldn't necessarily prevent that, especially if we actually got the economy running and functional with people running shops:

If someone sets up a shop that sells logs, stone, sand, etc. at cheap or just reasonable prices (note that admin shop prices are supposed to be higher than reasonable), you can just go there, and then from your perspective it's no different than getting it from the admin shop, except that it might not always be stocked, so you might sometimes not be able to get materials from there, but in theory if it is stocked when you wanted to build something, then what's the difference?

This sort of even exists without the economy. Before it was implemented, there were (and probably still are) chests full of gravel, cobblestone and dirt free for anyone to take, or even if you just happen to have a lot of materials lying around that you didn't gather with the intention of building anything, and then one day you want to build something and you realize you can just use those materials.

Well think of it like this; how much iron is a stack of logs worth? The price of logs and iron should correspond to that, except that since it's the admin shop, you converting the iron to logs should actually leave you with less logs than the iron was worth. So I think that would be an issue that would be resolved with price changes.

The bottom line is that you still have to make the effort to go out and get that iron, and honestly I don't think iron is that easy to find right now. I mean, it's not rare or anything, but you do actually have to go out and find it. You won't see it just laying around out in the open near spawn, you either have to go mining, or go further out from spawn where there might actually be some iron out in the open, or unexplored open caves that you can pop in and take some iron out of.


Kind of a side note, not really relevant to the argument of what to do with the admin shop/economy, but I think it would actually be kind of fun to work to figure out an adequate price distribution for all of the items in the admin shop. Right now the prices are pretty terrible. For example, right now I think diamonds are worth twice as much as gold. Diamonds are definitely worth more than 2 gold ingots. I'd say a diamond might be worth something more like 4-6 gold ingots based on the results of my mining expedition.



What you said about the sand is valid, but the thing is that I would personally prefer to not have to deface a desert. It just doesn't look good, so I feel like it would be better if it didn't happen. It's not too big of a deal, I guess we could designate a strip area like darvince suggested, but given the way 1.7.2 works, I don't think deserts are going to be isolated and scattered around, like they are now (judging by some biome maps that Thomas showed me in a PM), and I also think they're going to be rarer/harder to find, since they can no longer just spawn anywhere in the world, they need to be surrounded by other warm biomes. I've played in a few singleplayer minecraft games in 1.7.2 and have yet to see actually find a desert.

Yeah, I think I've overreacted a bit with the building in the survival world and I'm sorry, but that's actually the true and I don't think many of the lately built buildings were built without any help of the admin shop (not talking about your house). From what I recall, there was no economy at the times when the old buildings were built (the hotel, etc.) at all, but I might be wrong. As for the gold, I'd say diamonds are worth even more than 4-6 gold ignots mainly because they are really rare and when the gold actually pop ups a few times in some well branched, great low-positioned cave systems, diamonds might not appear at all, but that depends on the cave system itself; I rarely expect more than 2-3 diamond ores in a huge cave system. (unless I dig corridors on my own) I hope we'll be able to measure the prices well for the new world and they will be adequate enough to deal with.

If talking about the biomes, then I'd say some of the current biomes that were quite common and frequent aren't common and frequent anymore. It's really difficult to find a jungle or even a desert at times. Even though there are a few new biomes, it's not always so easy to find them too. Mega taiga happens at times, I've found ice spike plains only once accidentally in a survival world and I've never found a mesa even though I was teleporting myself on creative to lots of different coordinates, so it's possible we won't find any mesa biome at all.

Wow. I feel stupid... I just inaccurately corrected someone... Not a good day for me

http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/jobs/

Is this a possible solution to the who hunting mobs for money thing?

For the first part of the paragraph, it looks like I started building the Hotel right after the economy was created, or right before it. I do know for sure that by the time the Hotel was done with it's structural construction (floors/walls), the admin shop was already around. If I were to build anything big like that right now, I wouldn't use the admin shop for primary materials, unless I was making a building out of sand (I did actually design a building like that, which I have yet to actually build anywhere), in which case I wouldn't want to deface a nearby desert.

I do agree that buildings shouldn't be primarily built from admin shop materials (in fact the only thing I'd really ever buy from there would be sand for windows or just for sand, or maybe clay if I wanted to make bricks but I'm not too sure about that), but I haven't personally known about anyone doing that besides you (although now that I think about it... mymop )


As for the price of diamonds and things likewise, my price guess was going off of one trip I made to a mineshaft. I think I ended up with somewhere around 50-60 gold ore (maybe just over a stack, I don't remember offhand), and I also found 13 diamonds. Obviously it would be unwise for me to base it off of one trip, but my impression is that diamonds aren't that rare. My main point, though, is that the prices are way off.

Figuring out the price values would be an interesting task. Unless there's some way to determine or look up the frequency that ores spawn, I think what I'd have to do is go on several mining and caving expeditions, collecting all the ore that I possibly can (diamonds, gold, iron, redstone, lapis, emeralds, maybe even coal), and after coming out with that, figuring out how rare each item actually is relative to eachother. But it's also not enough to just base prices off of that. If there are 50 diamonds in a world and 250 gold, a diamond should cost(/be worth) more than 5 gold blocks, because diamonds only generate further down than gold, so it's less difficult to reach a gold-generating level than a diamond-generating level. And then we'd also have to figure out how much other non-ore materials should cost, too.


I'm not really sure what you mean by that. I just think we need to flat-out get rid of mob bounties.

It would be nice if sniper/bmwsu/livio would come on and add to this discussion at all.

Two things:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/1le4kp/diamond_and_ore_distribution_in_layers_5_to_12/
There's some ratio for you, although it is sadly only for the diamond layers, at least it gives you a hint. In 800.000 blocks, 94 diamonds were found. 0.01%. That's not a lot at all.

Also - what about this: an admin shop that only sells sand and gravel and other gravity-affected natural blocks that I may forget about? Or, at least only sells those for reasonable prices, and has big overpricing on everything else.

I thought now you guys were just talking about an admin shop with sand or something but it looks like Quirvy is still pushing for one with more stuff when I see discussion about the price of diamonds. I don't want to be able to buy diamonds. The ores underground IS the economy. The map generator makes diamonds more rare than gold which is more rare than iron. I really doubt you're gonna be able to have this second economy in the same have prices set perfectly so nobody can exploit something. Disable mob cash rewards? Great, I'll just build an iron farm or a gold farm and become the richest player in the game. Then it would just turn into the current survival. If you need sand you can go to a beach, desert, possibly rivers, or an ocean. Oceans are mostly gravel on the ocean floor now, but there is still some naturally occurring sand you can get and see easily with night vision. I hope the ocean won't miss that sand. I still say taking sand from a desert is part of the game. If I go caving and mine the iron, am I defacing the cave too? It's part of the game.

If this admin shop with the sand does somehow happen, I think it needs to be sold block by block and not in stacks. Nothing from the shop should have been sold in stacks because then it would end up being super cheap. For example one stack of oak wood in the current shop is $10 and players apparently start with $30 so right from the start I could get 192 oak wood, which, when crafted to planks becomes 768 wood planks?? All from doing nothing.

Still very against an additional economy.

It's obvious that the outcome of the economy has given it a very bad reputation here, but I can say with absolute certainty, that an economy can be great if done correctly. I suggest the Jobs plugin, as it gives you money for performing certain tasks in Minecraft, and it's fully customizable, so any unreasonable shortcuts that are found can at any time be fixed.

just a question.
what about one-of-a-kind items? (i.e. ze dragon egg).
it's possible that people might want to use one for decorative purposes, but its quantity is rather limited. of course, the admins could just spawn one in for them...

Oh come on! I've only done it once when I was bored and I built that block of flats. My house is definitely made in at least 90% of natural materials not coming from the admin shop (except for some of the glass panes, because I didn't have too much sand anywhere nearby).

From one side, it would be nice for me and others to have a well working diamonds economy in the admin shop as it will make the game more interesting for sure, but I'm also thinking like Thomas from the beginning of this discussion, and as I just said in my first post. That's because I think even after increasing the price of diamonds, it may probably be easier to find enough money for a diamond rather than actually finding a diamond in mines. Of course, if we manage to adjust it really well enough and then additionally set the other prices properly in correct proportions with the existing prices, and prevent situations like this, then it might turn into a proper arrangement and I'd agree to it. (: