Yeah, although cool, the issue with this is that it's an analysis of layers that as the dude said "represents the area most populated by diamond ore". I think such a stat would only be useful for pricing purposes if it went from topsoil down to bedrock.

Why specifically gravity affected? I think the better split would be non-ores and ores. And I don't think we would want to have stuff like sand and logs be cheap to buy, for reasons that Teo has pointed out; we don't want people using the shop as a primary source for building materials (unless, IMO, it's built from sand or hardened clay, although buildings like that would have to make sense, like people shouldn't be building a sand tower in the middle of an ice plains biome. But even so getting the materials from the shop shouldn't be easy)

My opinions are as follows:

1. If we keep any sort of economy, rewards from killing monsters NEEDS to go; that is the primary cause of why our economy is so bad.
2. I would at least like to still have an admin shop where I'm able to still buy stuff like sand, hardened clay, and other materials that I would otherwise have to obtain by defacing the surface.
3. I think it would be worth it to see how my suggested changes would effect the current world's economy, and if that would make the economy functional

You talk about the iron and gold farms as being an easy exploit like the skeleton and enderfarms are now that you could do pretty easily, but nobody has actually ever gotten to making either on the server, so I'm not entirely sure how easy it would be for someone to make one of either. If one does get made, then the corresponding action is to disable selling iron/gold to the admin shop.

Also that comparison of mining in caves vs taking stuff from the ground is garbage and you know it. Shortened response to that: You probably wouldn't care if someone mined all the iron under your house, but I bet you'd care if someone collected all of the dirt around your house because they wanted to build a farm.


A stack of logs would still just be worth 64 * the price of one log, so I don't really understand what the difference would be. I feel like it would be more about good prices. But you may have a point, the price of logs to me seems like a problem; if it's too high, it's too easy to earn money, if it's too low, it's too easy to obtain lots of building materials. Perhaps we should make some items sell-only and buy-only in the admin shop. Or at the very least have a big difference in the buy/sell prices of some items. I'd have to think about it more, but I don't really have much time to think about this stuff right now. Perhaps I'll have more time in the future.


I'm still not sure what you mean by "jobs". Like someone would have to assign you a job and give you money, or you're just reward money for doing things? Because right now money from killing monsters is what's killing the economy, so I don't see how that would make it more functional, unless there are specific good tasks included that we should only get money from, which could make sense, but I feel like you should elaborate and give more examples of what would earn you money in our new, improved economy. Because we can't have menial tasks like killing a zombie/skeleton/enderman earn you money, but maybe something like converting a zombie villager to a villager could be a good job to give rewards for. I guess I'll have to look into that thing when I get more time, but right now I'm sort of quickly reading and responding to posts.

Gravity-affected blocks only because they are more difficult to gather neatly. You can never have a top layer and then mine out everything beneath it, which'd keep things aesthetically pleasing.

It's called the Jobs plugin. You choose a job, (Mining, Farming, Digging, etc.) and you get money by performing those tasks.

I'm not particularly opposed to or supportive of the economy plugin. Although, I think the idea of having money on top of resources kinda makes the game less elegant in my opinion.

What if our economy just didn't have an admin shop? What if members were able to build their own shops where you could buy/sell items, and it would be a limited supply. So if I mined 6 diamonds, then I could set up a shop and sell them until all 6 diamonds have been sold. I suppose the only way to make money then would be to sell things, and since not everyone wants to do that, then there wouldn't be that many buyers either. Hmmm.... Then I guess we could have an admin shop that only buys things from you and never sells?

This is kinda what I was saying about how inelegant this plugin is. It causes too many problems and it just makes the game more complicated to come to a good solution. But if you still think it's worth having, I guess you could keep the plugin around and then only those who want to participate in it will use it.

As for the Survival World reset: I'm okay with it, but I'd also like to be able to preserve some of our structures somehow.

Well the problem with the lack of any sort of admin shop is that we need to get money from somewhere, and I think that money should come from resources, and without an admin shop to at the very least sell to, where is anyone going to get money from?

Kroto suggested that jobs thing, but I'm still not too sure about the examples he gave, "(Mining, Farming, Digging, etc.)"

Mining would get you resources that you could sell anyways.
Farming would be like skeleton farming is now; an easy, effortless way to make money.
Digging, I don't really understand.

I think a start would be just messing with the current world's economy, and seeing how that goes, but it looks like pretty much no one is going on the server right now. I wonder if that's because it's the middle of the school year, or if it's related to the fact that we're going to reset the server, so no one wants to bother coming online and doing anything since it'll all be lost soon. Despite that, me and Thomas have still done some interesting work on the survival server this weekend, particularly around Perseverance.

Well isn't it implied that we're going to have a backup somewhere of our old survival server? Or do you mean preserve some structures to be included in the new server?

We might rebuild some things (ie: The Hotel), but everything will still be created from scratch on the new server. We could copy some stuff to the creative server if we want to have replicas for us to look at and use as models to recreate, but we definitely can't be like, "lets copy this over to the new survival server"


Other points of discussion:

1. Still need to figure out what difficulty we want to be on.

I still think we should keep it at normal. Played a bunch this weekend, and I still don't see the need for making it tougher. While exploring a mineshaft with Thomas, I took a wrong turn and got ambushed and promptly killed by cave spiders, despite being well equipped and armed. Before that, while I was alone I got killed by them again. While I was able to recover my stuff in those instances, there were also times where I felt like if I was playing at a higher difficulty level, I probably would have died. I don't think that people like me and anyone else who might be around my level of play should be getting punished because some players would prefer to play on a harder difficulty setting, and I feel like that might be what ends up happening if we raise the difficulty. I still agree that this should be decided by a vote, though, so if the majority wants hard, then hard it is.

2. Still need to figure out what we want to do at new spawn.

Whatever we do with the area around spawn, I still think it needs to be more organized and planned. I don't like how things seem to be randomly popping up out of nowhere without anyone hearing about it first, like Teo building the overpass to the nether, and apparently a very fancy looking bridge leading to a small dirt tunnel/path I made by my house (when did that happen?), and then there's stuff like those 2 giant construction sites (courtesy of mymop and mutts, I believe) that are never going to get finished. I feel like things need to be better communicated and planned in new spawn, because it's our spawn and it should ideally be the best part of our server, since people's first impressions of our server is going to be our spawn.

(My apologies to Teo, by the way; I feel like I'm using that overpass as a negative example a lot, but really it's not that big of a deal. I just think it's a good example of something that shouldn't happen on the new server)

But that sort of sidetracks from the more direct question, of what should we do with new spawn? I guess it might depend on what our new spawn looks like (like if we spawn in a desert, ice plains, jungle, ect), but of course we could sort of choose what our new spawn's biome is if we're selective about what seed to use for the new world (only the admins would know what the actual seed is, though)

We could just wing it like we did with the current world's spawn, and just have a spawn location with a portal to creative, and random stuff built around it, but I think it would be cool to have an organized spawn, like how creative's spawn is that pyramid.

My opinion is probably biased, since the inspirations comes from the two places I've probably spent the most time at, but:

Personally I like the idea of having the spawn be in a large building, like the Hotel. So new players would spawn there and there would be lots of stuff around for them, like the food from the farms on the higher levels, an admin shop somewhere near the bottom of the building if we have it, some chests full of unwanted weapons/armor free for anyone to take (like they have at the skeleton farm). We wouldn't need to make spawn be the Hotel (although I plan on rebuilding it somewhere on the new server, anyways), I just like the idea of having spawn being held at a prominent skyscraper that towers over the land and clearly marks where spawn is (kind of like what kroto's spawn tower does, except that we'd make it an actual building). If we were to go with this idea, the best way to decide what to build would be for people to build their suggestions in creative, and then everyone jointly decide on what to do.

We could also make spawn be held at an actual village, and enforce a building limit where you can't build any houses or general buildings so many blocks from the village. After spending lots of time holed up at Perseverance this weekend, I feel like a place like that could make for a cool spawn, or just in general base of operations. Obviously we'd have to expand it so that there are enough houses for everyone, or maybe even make an underground base, but I think it would be pretty cool. One advantage to this is that after getting the village set up, by not allowing people to build right next to the village, it sort of forces people to move away from spawn and settle elsewhere in the world, which is something that I think should be encouraged.

Both of these ideas, though, would take some time to implement and would need to be well coordinated (although I feel like that would be true for any planned spawn).

But what do the rest of you think we should do with new spawn?

I don't understand the confusion of the Jobs plugin. You can pick a certain job among many, which include Mining, Digging, Farming, Fishing, and many others. Farming is not mob farming, it is planting and harvesting stuff. Digging is self-explanatory, it is digging dirt and gravel. The Jobs plugin comes with many different jobs like these, and will reward you with money for doing the jobs. It is automatic and does not require another person to give you money for the items you get, rather, it instantly will give you a certain amount of money for digging dirt. (Of course 1 block of dirt won't exactly give you much.) In addition, the rewards can be changed, so if one job seems to yield too much money, then at any time, the reward can be changed. Also, if there is a job that seems harmful to the economy, the job can be disabled.

Yeah, I understand that, I just don't see how it would really be all that different. I know farming is not mob farming, but what I'm saying is that, like mob farming, it's very low effort. Want cash? Just go up to the upper levels of the hotel and collect all the stuff growing there.

I think that the economy should be based on resources (as far as the source of all money), and that we probably don't want to be giving out free money for stuff that aren't resource-tied, because doing that job has no value relative to resources you can buy with the money you earned. And for the stuff that is resource tied, why would we need to implement the jobs plugin thing if we could just sell the resources instead?

I mean, it would work better than the current economy (that's not saying much, though), because it wouldn't be as easy to make cash, but I still fear we'd get some of the same problems that we have now. Or maybe not, because on the other hand, honestly none of the jobs you listed sound particularly appealing, in my opinion. Mining, sure, but most people are going to be mining on their own to get the ores they find, not for money. I'm not quite sure how this works, but I imagine it would take the ores you collected rather than just giving you free money for finding the ores, and letting you keep the ores, too, and I don't think people would want to part ways with precious diamonds that they found. Either way this entire job could be pretty much equaled by selling the ores you found to the admin shop. Digging just sounds bad. Farming is easy, low effort, and can be done as much as possible, so people might want to do that a lot, and thus the price of it would have to be pretty low to discourage people from making quick and easy money, which makes it not a very appealing job. I don't think that fishing is fun at all; I think that they just made it so that you now have to wait a minimum of 5 seconds before you can possibly get a fish/junk/whatever. Fishing takes too long now (in 1.7), and since there are no mechanics besides waiting for the fish to bite, it's just tedious to me.

Personally, I'd be okay with trying it before the reset to see how it works, but I just have doubts that it will actually help the economy.

The new economy should only be based on non-renewable resources or renewable resources that are hard to make truly renewable (ie, coal or iron)

Dirt is non-renewable, right? =p

Yes, afaik, dirt, sand, gravel, diamonds (the item), and all the ore blocks are non-renewable. And by extension I guess grass is non-renewable.

Money for harvesting crops would turn into the new enderman farm. And if I got money for mining dirt which is apparently finite, what if I placed the block, and repeatedly mined it to exploit this? Can you rely on the admins to fix these exploits fast enough?

There was no demand for either an iron farm or a gold farm. If I see that as a viable exploit, I could sell my iron from the farm to this new admin shop, then like CSD, I could afk at my iron farm and then go watch TV or the Canucks or something and come back and make $5,000 from doing nothing. I don't like the idea of disabling iron or gold due to an "exploit" being found. The "exploit" could easily have been exploited in the time frame between the farm being built and an admin coming to to implement your solution and I think you do know that could take a while for an admin to come on. That actually feels like over-moderation. Are people not allowed to be rich? I don't want a communist server. Also if I built an iron farm, expecting to get money and lots of iron and stuff and then the administrators step in, and out of thin air, decide that I have broken some sort of secret rule and then lower the price of iron or remove it, I'd be pretty annoyed. That's corruption.

So this discussion is really getting nowhere. Kro has talked about Jobs or something but some of us don't understand it 100% (and the plugin page seems quite bland) and you, Quirvy still don't want to play by the rules and take sand from the desert. I've been suggesting to you both through PM and on the server a bit that you should setup a poll but now I'll just straight-up say that you should. It's not like Livio is going to come on here and do that and I don't think Bmw could if he wanted to. So I'd suggest you make a poll on the issue, at least 10 days long and with an equal number of options both for and against this economy. Then after that is out of the way, a poll for the difficulty can be held, which I haven't made a final decision on yet. If there's an economy though, I'd certainly vote for hard (or hardcore) to balance the difficulty as the economy only makes things easier.

I also think that we should add in a few more admins that are more active on the server. Lets be honest, Livio, Bmwsu and Isa aren't on that much.

If I get Minecraft can I build a big long pointless mine cart ride to nowhere.

So I got on the server today, and I noticed something: My mycelium farm is gone.  Why is this?

MC glitched a little bit, leading to this pretty cool view of the Hotel:

that's pretty awesome. glitches should happen moar

So yeah, we haven't made any progress on the economy debate at all. As requested by Thomas (a while ago), poll created.

At this point I don't particularly care; I'm willing to throw out the economy, especially because its existence is associated with making the game easier, and thus probably part of why others want to increase the difficulty, and I'd prefer normal difficulty without an economy to hard difficulty with an economy. And also I feel like it would just be a hassle to get it working right. It might be sort of fun to get it working right, but many of us have limited time and ultimately there are other fun things to work out that are more important, like what we should do with new spawn.


Shall we start debating what the new server's difficulty level should be?

I tend to die a lot with what it is right now... i'm fine with whatever it was.

There should be a "Meh" option to the poll. Either way, I would only play on Survival occasionally so it wouldn't really affect me much.

"Meh" = not voting

Added a third option

omg, stop being daft and update

No, give them 3 days warning before map reset.

And I imagine that we should have more than 3 days warning before the map reset, that way we can coordinate the start of the new world.

As for the difficulty debate, 2 things that I think contribute to people thinking that the game is too easy right now:
1. The current economy makes it really easy to get materials. We likely won't have an economy in the new world.
2. Players are established and have stuff like diamond armor and tools/weapons, farms, infrastructure. There are a couple things I think about this. Firstly, all of that will be initially gone when we reset the map, and with that in mind there will be an immediate change of difficulty when we reset the map.

Eventually we'll get settled and things will get easier, but even so, if you think it's too easy and not really any fun, why not ditch the armor? I sort of view this the same way I view people complaining about how they abuse the economy and that's why we should get rid of it: "I'm doing things that make the game less fun for me, stop me from doing them!" With the economy, that can sort of be a problem because it can affect other players and the server (see: Teo using admin shop to make a building in front of the Hotel), but with difficulty I don't really see why if someone thinks that the game is too easy when they wear diamond armor, those who don't have (or use) such things should have to put up with a raised difficulty level.

Obviously that's not always the case; there are also people who are just good at the game, or like a bigger challenge, but then there are also others who aren't and do not, and I just think that stuff like this should be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not we should raise the difficulty.

I feel like if anyone wants difficulty, they should build some sort of game-like thing like those floor mazes in Quirvy's hotel that are filled with monsters.