Good entry post Yaya. My vote stays, as right now of the three possible scum candidates, atvelonis is the most likely in my eyes right now.  

Welcome to the game, Yaya.


lol same

Even though yimmy was scum, he was certainly right about him being newbtown (though I guess this is easier to figure out when you're scum, yeah?). On one hand, I saw this as him potentially picking the low hanging fruit. On the other, I thought that this would be a decent cover for scum to coast. This was the main reason I investigated him.

I am not sure what to make of HB's irrational behavior. Due to the confusing nature, I will have to assume she is just busy. I don't know if this says anything about her alignment.

I'm leaning towards Atvelonis as scum candidate.


This seems too oddly specific to me. If he actually remembered this from 5 years ago, props, but the whole interaction seems weird to me, on both sides.


Here, you seem unwilling to accept that you're an inactive player. You have posted little to no original thoughts. Quantity =/= quality. I will note that inactivity isn't determinant of alignment, but you trying to play it off as if you were not inactive is suspicious.


Because you should want pressure on what in your case should be the only candidate available. 1 early vote does not determine a lynch. This interaction makes atvelonis look scummy to me. It seems like he's trying too hard to look town. To me, it seems like you just overlooked the fact that if you're town and everyone else is town, then HB is scum.

Atvelonis has made multiple mistakes, which only were corrected after the fact of them being questioned. While mistakes do happen, they seem to be adding up...

Overall, I think yimmy buddied you a little too much at the start and you wanted him to stop. Your only real interaction was when he threw you a bone and asked what you thought of Kro. Your analysis of why Yimmy was town on day 1 was because he seemed to be scumhunting and on day 2 because he was frustrated with Kro's hammer. Yeah, everyone was. You put no further elaboration and had no desire to nitpick any of yimmy's actions.

Compared to HB's posts: though yimmy and HB had very little interaction, it was consistent. There were no weird spikes. Additionally, HB put in more detail into her reads on yimmy, providing relatively decent arguments/reads.

I am curious about what atvelonis will say.

Vote: Atvelonis

Atvelonis is now at L-1.
He has been online since, but without a post for 5 days.

yikes, that formatting.

ATVELONIS IS AT L-1

In case this isn't clear...

There were a few hours before the deadline, but it was also getting later in the evening and Soccer's comments strongly urging someone to do something certainly contributed to my decision to hammer. I wasn't sure if anyone else would actually do it—there was a non-zero chance that others would have also thought "someone else will place the last vote"—and I didn't want to risk wasting a lynch.

The reason I initially hesitated was because Kro had some questions for Yimmy, but after they were answered (and also, but not primarily, because Jorster was also urging a hammer, which I stated in that post) I didn't have a reason to hold off anymore; I thought we had enough ammunition to do it at that point. If I hadn't voted I'm sure my inaction would have been the subject of even more scrutiny.


No, it was almost definitely because of that. He pointed it out right here at the beginning of the game. I had forgotten about it until he made his comment.


I didn't claim I wasn't inactive. The purpose of that comment was to show that during Day 1 Yimmy didn't focus on me because I was not the most inactive—that would probably have been Darvince. I get that I haven't been as active as I should have been.

VOTECOUNT OF THE DAY


Yaya has replaced aych bee.

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day ends in: April 1, 1:00 p.m. INTERGUILD TIME.

atvelonis (3) - Jorster, Yaya, Soccerboy.
Yaya (2) - Mymop, atvelonis.

NOT VOTING:
Krotomo.

Nobody needs to be prodded.

I'm not too suspicious of this because it's pretty similar to me. I've been pretty indecisive at times in this game, and my contributions haven't been as substantial as those of Soccer, for example. But, despite all this, I'm still town, so it just doesn't seem undeniably incriminating. However, after reading the rest of your post there is something that does point to him being scum:
Atvelonis's lynch of Yimmy seems very out of character considering how indecisive he has been during the rest of the game. He's made many remarks about wanting to hear others' opinions before making a decision himself, but his hammer on Yimmy is very strange, especially because, as Yaya pointed out, there was still time left and Yimmy hadn't answered Kro's questions, which is what atvelonis said he had been waiting for.

Overall, atvelonis is looking a bit scummy. But there is still plenty of time before this day ends and I'd like to see other people's analyses before doing anything. My vote for HB/Yaya will stay for now because Yaya hasn't addressed my reasons for suspecting HB (although of course it will probably be a bit difficult for him to do so since he can't read HB's mind).  

This should be April 1st at 00:00 since you extended the day earlier, right?

My vote still stands as of now. Until now, I hadn't realized that Kro could split the vote evenly between Atvelonis and I. That could be... problematic.

This also just occurred to me earlier today. What if the remaining mafia member is of the godfather variety, where they'll show up as town if a cop targets them? I'm bringing this up primarily due to Soccerboy & I being surprised that Mymop's investigation came back innocent. Think it's possible, Soccerboy? I know there's been godfathers with that sort of investigative immunity in previous IG mafia games.

This is literally what I was talking about. Yimmy says "play the game this time" 3 times in total. This does not look like a normal interaction, especially given that we know yimmy is scum. My guess is that there was no/limited daytalk and he tried to send you a message.

As for being inactive, you've made a decent amount of posts, but none of them say anything.


If not for my cop read, you would likely be my #1 scum read. Take from this what you will.

Note that it isn't just his inactivity, but also his interactions with yimmy that set him apart.

As for the hammer, I think everyone knew yimmy's cover was blown. Like yimmy said, he wasn't actually trying to save himself, just trying to out the role. I could see atvelonis hammering to try to set himself apart/make sure yimmy didn't say anything to incriminate him. I don't think this should be the only deciding factor for determining atvelonis' alignment, but at least we can find reasons for why he would if he's scum.


I don't believe so. If this were the case, I don't think yimmy would bother fishing for the cop. With both a miller and godfather in play, the role of the cop becomes practically useless, if not detrimental to the town. Yimmy would've known this and tried to out a more powerful role with his sacrifice. Because of this (along with potential balancing issues) I am inclined to believe that mymop is town and that we should only question this if something definitive comes up that would run contrary to this.  

Fixed VC, sorry.

What I'm getting at is that since I turned out to be town, the reasons for which you suspecting me of being scum aren't solid, and since those things apply to atvelonis as well, they aren't a good justification for suspecting him.

And yes, I know about the stuff with Yimmy— my thoughts on that comprised much of my last post.  

A town player can play scummy incredibly easily. Inactivity and lack of own opinions are anti town at their core, just because you turned out to be town doesnt make those actions indicative of town alignment.  

Yeah, Soccerboy's investigation coming up town doesn't suddenly make all your previous actions make sense. It just makes it look like you were a bad townie, or something interfered with Soccerboy's investigation of you.

Idk, while Atvelonis's interactions with Yimmy do not help his case, neither do Mymop's. Like right around the time Yimmy's performance was starting to tank, a bunch of people gave readlists. Page 10 has 6 different readlists (including one from Yimmy). Of those 6 readlists, Mymop offers the least suspecting take on Yimmy's behavior

Moderate amount of insight=/=scum or town. Furthermore, what does the next sentence even mean? That you two generally tried to work on the same page, but occasionally disagreed to avoid too much suspicion?

Likewise, Atveloni's read of Yimmy isn't too great. Even before I joined the game, it seemed pretty clear Yimmy's apathy/frustration was due to mounting suspicions that he was mafia

Then, if we take a look at Yimmy's readlist, and see his thoughts on Atvelonis/Mymop... A very non-committal read. Keeping his distance?

Although Soccerboy agreed with Yimmy's assessment of Mympop being "newbtown", and AFAIK no one asked Yimmy to further articulate (his fake claim blew up in his face on the next page, so that took center stage), calling someone (aka a potential scum partner) newbtown seems like a good way to take attention off of them entirely. Like, oh they're harmless, don't mind them

Yimmy pressured atvelonis early during Day 1 for his inactivity, but then quickly stopped. Atvelonis claims that this is due to him becoming moderately active. However, this is inconsistent with yimmy's perspective on the game. Yimmy states himself that he thinks a townie who posts "nothing but fluff" is more scummy than a townie who actively acts scummy; in other words, townies have to not just be active in terms of post count, but their posts must also have substance. And as soccerboy said, atvelonis's posts have been of pretty low quality, regardless of the quantity. Even I pointed out in my early posts that atvelonis's posts during Day 1 were mainly a regurgitation of others' views rather than new thoughts. Despite this, you hardly see yimmy pressure atvelonis based off of the quality of his posts. However, you see yimmy pressure other people during Day 1 based off of the quality of their posts, such as soccerboy on page 5 (link) and rocketguy on page 6 (link). In that second post, yimmy also states that "Atvelonis and Darvince need more pressure on them," and then proceeds to vote for Darvince and not atvelonis. That second point is pretty much the only time yimmy says anything to direct suspicion towards atvelonis during the mid-late portions of Day 1, and it's very insignificant. So in short, atvelonis's reasoning for yimmy not continuing to pressure him is flawed.

I don't think his comments there are especially indicative of anything. If I were scum with Yimmy, you'd think that after several direct requests for me to make more aggressive plays/decisive comments I would have taken the hint. Obviously, I did not. As you and others have pointed out quite a few times I've been fence-sitting for pretty much the whole game.

One explanation for my behavior is that I'm very unobservant scum and simply didn't notice anything unusual about Yimmy's daytime messages to me, and for some reason Yimmy did not reiterate his suggestion during nighttime after Day 1 (doubtful). Considering how clearly it was stated, it would be very difficult for the intended recipient to miss. As scum, I'm sure I would have noticed and obeyed.

Because I did not start playing aggressively, I was either ignoring him (which would be a recipe for disaster; what could I possibly gain by refusing to work with a more experienced mafia player...?), or there must be some other explanation; perhaps that I'm town, and didn't notice anything particularly unusual about those messages from Yimmy because, being on different sides of the game, I had absolutely no reason to.

I'm relatively confident that Yimmy just wanted a more active game this time, and since I ghosted on Jory last game he focused on me at the beginning. I don't think there's anything more to it than that.


That's true, but you can only vote for one person at a time. Darvince had not posted a full read list when Yimmy cast his vote, and it had been 42 hours since Darvince's last post compared to only 24 for me. This might have made Darvince appear like a slightly more likely scum candidate.

It's not just because I turned out to be town. Sorry that I didn't explain further. Since what I posted was apparently insufficient, I'll elaborate.

I do recognize that not making substantial statements is detrimental to the town, but it's not a good reason for suspicion because so far it has not helped us figure out who's scum. For example: it seems that RG was suspected of being scum primarily because of his lack of substantial contributions, and he turned out to be town. Darvince was also seen as suspicious due to inactivity, and he turned out to be town as well. I have also come under scrutiny for not making enough contributions. And, although perhaps Yimmy was initially seen as suspicious due to his apathy, what convinced me of his being scum was the role claiming and Soccer's explanation of his hidden messages. Overall I don't see a case where someone being inactive/not making worthwhile statements has resulted in us correctly determining them to be scum.

And yes, I do realize that not making substantial contributions isn't the only reason you're suspicious of atvelonis.


I generally think favorably of people who think similarly to the way I do. However, if he had agreed with every single thing I said, that would have been suspicious. Therefore, since he tended to agree with me in general but was not afraid to point out where he thought I was wrong, I thought he was town. Sure, I ended up being wrong, but that's what I believed at the time.  

Mymop, I can see why you would think that it is insufficient. The problem, however, is that we have to wait for scum to slip or contradict themselves in order to get any certain type of evidence. This is not going to happen with someone who posts nothing content-wise. Atvelonis has consistently posted content along the lines of: restatement of what X has said; it could be this, but it also could be the opposite, could be either one tbh. That, or he happens to be near first to post and picks the low hanging fruit without going any deeper.

Start of day 2:

Start of day 3:


While this is okay as a start, the problem is that he never goes any further unless prompted. It's feigning activity. Does it mean he's 100% scum? No, but it is not that beneficial to town. When it comes to determining his alignment, there's nothing I can point to that shows that he's actually looking for scum rather than faking it.

To add, mymop, your actions from even your very first few posts brought immediate suspicion to you. Being town doesn't mean that all your posts are automatically good. The information we have presents us with chances, not guarantees. Darvince posted "lynch me" and was still town. That doesn't mean everyone who says "lynch me" should be considered to be town.

I want to make one final note about inactivity: to me, it's not lack of posting that bothers me about atvelonis; if it were, HB would be the prime candidate. It's that he has made a bunch of posts without any content, and in his more recent posts, he's had to backtrack to explain what he "really meant" and has only done so after questioning.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Atvelonis, you'd think you'd take the hint. Maybe that's why he kept pushing.


All 3 examples were from day 1. At this point, you would presumably have little chance for nighttalk. This falls in line with what you bring up.


How would you know you were on different sides of the game if yimmy's alignment was unknown?

Unless someone asks me to go into more depth about a post, the natural assumption is that it was understood, even if it wasn't worded beautifully (I'm not a mind reader). If I started nitpicking every word you said I'm sure you would go to equal lengths to get across your actual meaning properly, and that alone wouldn't indicate anything about alignment either. I can't really disagree with your final conclusion, though; I look pretty suspicious right now. As I've stated previously, you and others seem to beat me to the punch much of the time, so I've only really been able to echo existing comments. I'm not sure how else I can defend myself here.


If I were scum, I would have known that Yimmy was too, and would therefore have paid closer attention to what he was saying—ignoring him would surely have been a good way to end up in this exact situation. Since I had no such connection to Yimmy, I read his posts the same way I read any other post, and had no direct incentive to give his words credence over anyone else's.

This doesn't answer Soccer's question. In fact, I think it does the opposite; Soccer asked how you knew that you and Yimmy were not on the same side, and your reply suggests that you could not have known that.

Aside from that, while I am aware that Yaya can't read minds, there are a few things concerning HB that I'd like for him to explain. First:

Also:

These, as well as HB's role in getting RG lynched, are why I voted for HB/Yaya, and my vote will remain until either they are explained or until I see undeniable evidence that someone else is scum. If Yaya turns out to be innocent, atvelonis is my next guess for scum.  

It's not like Kro's logic is gospel or something. Keep in mind that quote is from a post where he labelled everyone except Soccerboy and Yimmy as scum, then hammered RG with 5 days left in D1. Your logic is even less gospel in that case. Congrats on thinking Jorster is town.

As for that 2nd quote, I think HB's logic is pretty bunk there. As far as I can tell, the initial vote she is referring to is this one, and to me that was still in the rvs (imo the rvs ended when Isa roleclaimed). Yeah, he could've voted for Atvelonis as a crappy ploy, but HB using something from the rvs as evidence is dumb, especially when there's more compelling evidence linking Atvelonis and Yimmy together. Like I've iterated before, just because I took HB's place, doesn't mean I agree with her logic and play style.

I don't know what you want me to say about RG getting lynched. I had no role in the game at the time, I was not the one who voted for him. I don't have access to some strategy-filled scum chat, because I am town. You yourself say I can't read minds. What do you want from me? It seems like you'd rather bang your head against a wall until something happens rather than productively play the game

Atvelonis, you could try re-reading your post (with the handy preview button) or even after you post it. If you at least make a double-post noting your mistake, we can at least understand it and potentially forgive you. If you say something that 100% incriminates you, we ask about it and you backtrack, we're not going to be forgiving.

Your second part does not answer my question. If you are town, you have no way of knowing if yimmy is mafia. You give the reason that "being on different sides of the game, I had absolutely no reason to." You only know you are on the same side if you are mafia. I see no reason if you are town to assume yimmy is mafia and to disregard his post on that notion.

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Mymop, I would highly advise against trying to build any sort of case off of what Kro posted there. If yaya happens to be mafia, you're just helping them out. Remember when Kro backtracked on his entire post?

Yimmy's vote was blatant in the sense that if it's a yimmy-atvelonis scum team, it's really pushing the limits of normal behaviors. He had already told atvelonis to play more 3 days prior. He then decided he needed to say it again. I wouldn't personally call it low risk, but I could see HB saying that in the sense that yimmy probably thought that he would survive longer than atvelonis (due to experience) and that he could use the vote as leverage for his "suspicions" or whatever. I don't necessarily agree with this but just wanted to try to help you understand.

Furthermore, I would definitely not use the phrase "HB's role in getting RG lynched" when RG's lynch was 100% Kro's fault. Additionally, atvelonis voted for RG after HB did... I don't see why you're so fixated on her when 1) RG's lynch was literally all Kro, and 2) Atvelonis was a part of it too, and he's more of a bandwagoner than she was. There are definitely reasons to perceive HB/Yaya as scummy, but yours don't quite add up.

Because I think you're town, mymop, I want some input on this matter. What do you make of HB's read-list here? She has yimmy and atvelonis as scum. If she is scum, do you think that it is risky to label her teammate as scum?

In atvelonis' readlist, he labels everyone as town or neutral. He also later posts "The problem here is that I'm not really seeing anyone as scum in the first place." Do you think that this says anything about his alignment? How does this compare to HB's readlist?

Do you buy atvelonis' assertion that if he were scum, he would listen to yimmy? i.e. he is town because he did NOT improve his gameplay

How do you feel on the matter of that Atvelonis declined to vote for HB, even after he had believed every member besides her to be town? I understand that you like to go off of hard evidence, but plain and simple, we are not going to get any evidence during this day. We will have to come to a decision at some point.

How do you feel about this matter?:



I am curious as to why Atvelonis did not mention this. Do you think that this has any bearing?

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I agree with Yaya's sentiment here. Hoping to play this game off of only "undeniable evidence that someone else is scum" is in for a bad time. The game would basically be over if I got NKed.

Noted, I'm used to not double posting. I do use the preview button and revise comments before publishing, but of course what makes sense to me after revision won’t necessarily make sense to everyone else (such as what’s happening right now).


Yes, I was not aware that Yimmy was mafia at the time, and my post wasn’t implying that, only that we ended up being on different teams. Think about it from my perspective during Day 1. I was plain town, and I didn’t know anyone else’s alignment. The only reason I would have gone along with Yimmy’s every request were if we were both mafia, because I’m not stupid and ignoring the more experienced player would cause us to lose quickly.

However, since I’m town, I wasn’t about to start playing aggressively simply because he told me to do so—after all, it could have been a scum tactic to encourage inexperienced players to lynch prematurely. So I took it all with a grain of salt. Maybe that was a poor decision on my part, but, if anything, it’s because I’m not that good at mafia, not because I’m scum.


Wasn't entirely sure what you were trying to say and didn't have time to think about it more when I made that post; are you suggesting that all of those things lines up with my final claim (that the scenario I presented was unlikely, and I was town), or that it lines up with what I was arguing didn't occur, i.e. that I was scum?

I don't see how it could line up with the latter. The point I was making was that Yimmy would have definitely contacted me at night right as Day 1 ended if he thought that I wasn't understanding his previous posts. He would have had no reason to continue dropping the same hint during Day 2 if we were both scum, because he would have communicated it to me much more clearly the previous night. No way he would have simply let me do whatever and probably lose him the game; he would have known that I was not particularly experienced and would have taken a very active role in the actions we took.


I also agree that waiting for undeniable evidence can't always be a good strategy in this game. If I'm lynched today instead of the other member of the scum team, Soccer probably will be the next person to be killed because of his ability. I think we could still win after this though. We know that Jorster and Mymop are both town, which narrows it down just to Yaya and Kro.

Did you just softclaim or am I misunderstanding here?


He didn't say to play aggressively or anything of the sort. He just said to play/be more active.


My point is that all 3 of yimmy's posts pushing for your activity were from Day 1, not Day 2. For reference: 1 2 and 3. You are arguing against me on the basis that he would not have said anything on Day 2 and rather would do it in nighttalk, but he did not make these posts on Day 2, so he very well might have stopped later on Day 1 (and thus not on Day 2) so that he could just elaborate on it at night.

I don't know if that counts as a softclaim, I just put it out there. But yes, to be more clear, I am a vanilla townie. I don't have any abilities that allow me to see other people's roles so I wouldn't have known if Yimmy were town/scum early on.

Is this a surprising claim? I don't know how many power roles shos gave out but the wiki says a common balance is about 1/2 vanilla. We already have a cop (you), miller (Kro), and commuter (Jorster), and we know that Yimmy was a scum rolecop. One other person here has to be scum, so that's five non-VT players. RG and Darvince were both vanilla townies, as was Mymop (presumably—you didn't say vanilla specifically), so it's down to me or Yaya being the final VT. I don't think Yaya claimed a specific role, just that he was town. Not sure if that indicates anything useful about either of us. Perhaps it implies that the term "vanilla townie" wouldn't have come to mind as quickly for Yaya since his role PM would have specified a scum role and not VT.


That's true, the literal messages just referenced activity. However, I personally read "play the game" as encouragement to do more than sitting back and watching (which would include both more activity in general and more useful contributions, i.e. not fence-sitting), which is kind of what I ended up doing.


If I'm understand you correctly, we're analyzing Yimmy's actions the same way but drawing different conclusions about my alignment. The scenario I brought up suggests that if I were scum, Yimmy dropped those hints for me in Day 1 and I didn't pick up on them, so he would have told me the same thing more directly in nighttalk right after Day 1 ended, and had no reason to continue dropping that sort of hint in Day 2, which is why he didn't.

Now if you cut it off early in Day 2, this theory seems to indicate that I'm scum. Yimmy didn't drop any more of those hints, implying that he got the message through to me in nighttalk. However, as we can see in the following days, his alleged nighttalk message evidently wasn't well-received; I continued being inactive and indecisive. In the clearest way I can put it, these are the possible reasons for that:

1) I am scum, but purposely ignored Yimmy's nighttalk message in Days 2 and 3 for some reason. This is unlikely because, as I stated earlier, refusing to work together would be extremely detrimental to the mafia team, and both of us would have been perfectly aware of that.

2) I am not scum, and did not take Yimmy's advice because I had no direct motive to do so. This is both more likely and the truth. As a vanilla townie, you aren't truly sure of anyone's roles, so you have to be careful acting on everything you read because mafia could be trying to push you in the wrong direction. As scum, you're in the minority and thus have to take advantage of anything you can; being able to work with someone else knowing for sure that they are scum is definitely not something any remotely competent scum player would pass up on. You would have to be very bad at this game (or intentionally trolling/messing up the game for mafia?) to do that, and I don't think I'm quite at that level.

Usually, when people role claim, they make it as explicit as possible and when it is prompted or actually ADDS TO THE GAME. The result of it isn't surprising; it's just that no one asked you to. Yaya didn't claim VT because no one asked him to claim. Since you've already claimed, what's your flavor? i.e. the thing attached to your role.


Judging by that no one actually responded to this... no one wanted Yaya to roleclaim.



The point is: you can't make this jump given that no one wanted Yaya to roleclaim. Even then, if Yaya wanted to role claim, VT would be the easiest thing to claim. Do you really think Yaya is incapable of coming up with that as mafia?

Additionally, you're breaking this down into two scenarios, scum or not scum, but only providing a reason that fits for scum which you can argue against easily.


I would change this to: You're scum, but due to your inexperience, you weren't sure on how to play better. I highly doubt you would purposely try to sabotage the game; rather, you just didn't play well. You can play poorly as either scum or town. Your case seems to be built on the basis of perfect play, when I am sure that is not the case. Why should I be more inclined to believe that you would suddenly play better if you were given a mafia role instead of town? Refusing to work together as town sucks too, so why not play better there?

As for the topic of being a vanilla townie... I feel like you may be underestimating the power you have/overestimating the power of PRs.


This is also true for the Miller, Commuter, me (despite being cop), really all town roles. The mafia has just as much sway in trying to persuade me. I didn't know anything after Day 1 returning No Result on Jory. He could still be town or mafia, and to me it appeared independent of alignment so I couldn't draw any analysis from that. In essence, being a VT isn't special. We all are in the dark regarding most. I'm only slightly less in the dark, but with whatever I learn, the town learns too. Being the cop doesn't give me much power in the way of creating better analysis or anything.  


What if I were to say "You would have to be very bad at this game to not come up with a single scum candidate"? Is this an equal level of bad play as to be mafia and not communicate well? For example, in one of my first mafia games here, I was new and didn't quite understand the power of night communications until it was too late. Perhaps you realized this too late, now that yimmy's gone, and are now trying to use this to your advantage. There are endless possibilities.

I also wanted to add that it's actually quite easy to slip up as mafia, contrary to what you believe. Given all this information, one accidental message regarding said information leads to a web of lies. When that happens, you're done for. It's actually quite difficult to play mafia well in my opinion, as the whole game relies on acting. If you are town, you know this for certain, and you don't have to fear as much.

To repeat, answer these questions, please:
1) What's your flavor attached to your role?
2) Why should I believe that if you were given a scum role, you would play any better than if you were given a town role?